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11-21-1988 Town Board MinutesState of Minnesota The Town Board of the Town of Otsego County of Wright met this 21st day of November, 1988 Town of Otsego at 8:00 P.M. Norman Freske, Chairman Floyd Roden and Douglas Lindenfelser, Supervisor, James Barthel, Treasurer, Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk and Jerome Perrault, Clerk were present. The meeting was called to order by Chairman Norman Freske. Minutes of the November 7, 1988 Town Board Meeting were approved as read. First item of business was a discussion of the flood levee along the Mississippi River by the Elk River Bridge. Dave Christianson and Stan Kummer of the Army Corps of Engineers, Bill Radzwill Attorney, and Pete Raatikka, Engineer were present. Stan Kummer of the Army Corps of Engineers said that two floods occurred in this area, one in 1965 and one in 1969. As the Army Corps of Engineers has the authority to come in as an emergency measure and construct a levee to prevent floods, this was done in 1969. He said the levee was constructed as a temporary levee and not properly engineered. Residents of the area said the West part of the levee (from the bridge West) was constructed as a permanent levee with rip -rap on the river side and the East part was constructed as a temporary levee. Easements were obtained for the West part of the levee. Russell Kluge, on whose farm much of the East part of the levee sets, said that he had to sign an agreement allowing the Corps to construct the levee. A resident whose property is just beyond the west end of the dike said that considerable bank erosion is occurring in that area and will need to be controled. Dave Christianson said that the Army Corps has the authority under Section #205 of the 1948 Flood Control Act to come in at the request of the local governing body (either Township or County), and do a study of the levee and determine it's condition, whether it is feasible to leave the levee in place and what repairs are needed if it is left in place. The local governing body making the request is required to cost share the study on a 50-50 basis unless the study costs less than $40,000, in which case it will be completely Federal Funded. The local governing body is also required to pay 25% of construction costs. Dave Christenson said the Army Corps will check any records they have of when the levee was constructed and Wayne Fingelson, County Engineer will be asked to check County records as the Township was not involved in the construction. Residents of the area were quite concerned that the levee should be left in place. Residents of 96TH Street in Mississippi Shores were present at the meeting to express their concern about 96TH Street becoming a thru street into another development West of Mississippi Shores, and the increase in traffic it will cause. One resident said 96TH Street is now .9 of a mile and extending it would add another 1.1 miles to it. One resident State of Minnesota Town Board Meeting of November 21, County of Wright 1988 - Page 2 - Town of Otsego suggested looping 96TH Street through Burdick's Development and connecting it to 92ND Street instead of going straight thru. The Board advised the residents that more studies will be needed of the streets in the proposed developments of Burdick's and Darkenwald's property before a final decision is made. The County Engineer will also need to be consulted as the County is becoming more concerned about access to County #39. John Anderson was present at the meeting and said the Cemetery Association would postpone abandoning the old well in the Otsego Cemetery until next Spring if they properly covered it. Abandoning the well will cost about $250.00. A new well with a hand pump would cost about $2,000.00, and if a new well is installed there would be no charge for abandoning the old well. County Commissioner Basil Schillewaert appeared before the Board to say that he will be placing the rebuilding of County #42 and Co. #130 on the agenda of the Commissioners Meeting on November 29, and requested the Town Board to be present at the meeting and speak on behalf of the project. Motion by Floyd Roden to approve renewal of the "Off Sale" Beer License for the Tom Thumb Store. Seconded by Norman Freske, all Board Members voted in favor of the motion. Motion by Douglas Lindenfelser to grant the Otsego 4-H Club permissio to use the Town Hall on November 28TH and November 30TH. Seconded by Norman Freske, all Board Members voted in favor of the motion. Proceeding as a Board of Audit, the Town Board audited and allowed Verified Accounts Nos. 477 to 493 inclusive. On motion the meeting adjourned. NORMAN F. FRESKE, CHAIRMAN SUPERVISOR DOUG LINDENFELSER, SUPERVISOR FLOYD RODEN, SUPERVISOR ATTEST: JEROME PERRAULT, CLERK JP/eb STATE OF MINN. Town Board Meeting of November 21, COUNTY OF WRIGHT 1988. Norman Freske, Chairman, Floyd TOWN OF OTSEGO Roden and Douglas Lindenfelser, Supervisors, Jim Barthel, Treasurer, Jerome Perrault, Clerk, and Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk were present. Also present were William Radzwill, Township Attorney, Peter Rattikka, Township Engineer, and Dave Christenson, General Corps. of Engrs., Emergency Management Office and Stan Kummer, Small Projects Division of Corps. of Engrs., Basil Schillewaert, Co. Commissioner. The meeting was called to order at 8:00 P.M. by Chairman Norman Freske, and Minutes of the November 7, 1988 Town Board Meeting were read by Jerome Perrault, Clerk and approved as read, Motioin by Douglas Lindenfelser Seconded by Floyd Roden. At this point the meeting was turned over by the Chairman to William Radzwill, Township Attorney. Good evening, I guess we wanted to have an informational meeting by the Town Board, so this is an informational meeting tonight, with the Army Corps. about the temporary levee and I guess we will be making a lot of distinctions and be asking a lot of questions ourselves as a Township because we don't know a lot about this levee. We have never maintained it. It is not ours. We want to know what the Army Corps. intention is. That is why we are having the meeting. After we get done, if anybody has any questions, and any areas we haven't covered, we would like you people to have some input. We are fact finding to find out what the status is. What the Army Corps. intentions are. Who's got liability for doing what, and who also I guess we want to find out who's responsible for the permanent levee on the West side of the road. The County Road up through there. We want to take a look and find out what some of the alternatives are and then what's the best avenue approach for you people. Right now the Township has no liability, it's not there levee. What we are trying to do is find out what can be done and is there a possibility the Township can send a message to the Army Corps.saying that we would like certain things done, and what economic effect, or there may be nothing to be done. We don't know. You'll kind of need to balance all of this. So when we get done tonight, we hope to have a great deal of information that we don't have right now. About two month ago, we received a report, about September 23 I guess I did, that was prepared by 'the Army Corps. I think it was prepared and sent out about September 19th. We reviewed it and then •the Town Board and myself and the Town Engineer walked the temporary levee, as well as the permanent levee. After that, we decided to have a meeting with the Army Corps. to get more facts so we know what is going on. This came out of the blue to us. We just wern't aware that there were any problems with the levee, or anything of that nature, so it gives you an idea where we are coming from. So, this is strictly informational. So after we -Page 2 - get done, some of these people may have a lot more information than we do for the Town Board as to what has transpired in the past and maybe where we can go in the future. I guess at this time we have Dave Christenson who is the Engineer for the Corps. who has been assigned by the Corps. on a small project basis. Am I correct? (Dave) No, basically I am in the Emergency Management Office. That covers our Small Project Office. So maybe, Dave you can go over and fill us in as the Board and the people as to what has transpired and where you people are going. (Dave) O.K. I am with the Emergency Management Office of the Corps. of Engineers. If some of you have been around here since 1965 - 1969, I don't know who of you has lived here that long. You know, the Corps, back then, and those are the two major floods we have had in this area, in recent times, and I think we had one back in 1950, I think. The flood of the Century was back in 1965 on the Mississippi River. 1969 was almost as bad in certain parts of the Mississippi River. During that time under our Public Law No. 8499, which is our emergency authority, we can when there is a flood threat, come in and provide assistance to the communities in construction of levee's, providing sand bags, providing technical assistance. Our understanding, is this is what occured back in 1969. What occured, was there was a flood threat. The National Weather Service told us that the river was going to come up here in Elk River, and there would be flooding. At that time, the proceedure would have been that we would have come in and built the levee at the request of the local community. Now, if you have been involved in a flood, of course, everything goes very quickly, I mean you've got a flood threat and the water coming up, you go out there and go into the community and the community says, and the Corps. says to the community, we need to get your assurances for land easements rights -of -ways in order for us to do any levee construction. O.K., so we rely upon the community, or the local government in that area to provide us with the rights -of -ways and land easements and permission to go on and build this levee. What we did, I think we stripped the ground and cleared off all the dirt and the trees and then we laid a sand levee. It is my understanding of the emergency levee. Was anyone here when they built that levee. Was that pretty much what happened? 1965 you mean? 1965, I don't know, but we thought it was 1969 it was built. (someone in crowd said 1969 it was built). It was built in 1969, but 1965 was the flood. You didn't get much flooding up here? The levee worked? Let me ask that question. (Dave) (Crowd) It's worked perfectly ever since. On the West side it has worked perfectly. That is a permanent levee there. I was talking about the other one on the East side. It works all the way around. If the water came up as fast as it did in 1965, it would do a great job. It has never come up that -Page 3 - fast since 1965. But, if we had another flood like that, that dike would be just fine. (Dave) The one on the East side? Both sides. That river came up over the banks in a matter of hours. If that dike was not there that whole area would be flooded in the matter of 4 or 5 hours. O.K. (Dave) Let me ask one question. In talking about the difference in the East side and the West side. Now, when was the West side levee constructed? We don't know. It was all done at the same time. (Dave) Was it done at the same time? It was done at the same time. Yes. (Bill R.) The question is, It is my understanding in talking to Basil Schillewaert, on the West side which is the one with the rock on it. The County takes care of that. Apparently they must have some kind of a contract? Well when I told Wayne Fingelson we were meeting on the dike, he said, you know that we take care of the West side, and I said about the trees,I said you cut them off because we don't want the roots to wash full of water, because when they die they will take water in and push the dike out. Is that right? (Dave) That's right. Now, the question is, it is my understanding that it goes all the way up to the point, and then the Fed. levee, the permanent levee. The East side, that was built as an emergency measure right? Is that correct? (Someone in crowd) That is correct. It was all put in at the same time for the same purpose. It was called permanent dike on the West side and temporary dike on the East side. But it was all put in for the same purpose. For flooding in that whole area. (Bill) Right, do you have any reason why they distinguished between permanent and temporary? I don't know why it became about at the time. They rocked the permanent part and did not rock the temporary part, because it was considered being on the inward side of the stream so it wouldn't erode like it would on the West side where the current was coming directly into the bank. The ice in 1965 came into that bank so hard it just tore it right out of there. (Bill) On the West side? On the West side. They lost 200' of their back yard in a matter of weeks, because that ice was hammering into those sharp corners and it just tore it away, and that is why that West side was rock. When they put that East side in they didn't feel they would ever have that current coming in there and they called it temporary at the time. (Bill) Do you know if the Army Corps., or the people gave easements to the Army Corps. or any governmental body? We gave easements on the West side I know. (Bill) You live on the West side? I live on the West side. And you gave easements to whom? To the County. (Bill) To the County? It was either the County or the Township, but I think it was the County at that time and it was a permanent easement for them to come in and take care of that dike if it needed any work. (Bill) O.K. That was '65 or '66? No. It was after '65. '66 was bad. When did you let the easement? Do you know? I am not sure. (Bill) To save us some work, is there a way you can get us a -Page 4 - copy of that, a photocopy of that easement? I would just like to have a look at it, to get up-to-date. We may have that on the title to our property. (Bill) It will be on that. That is correct. We just want some idea so I don't have to spend a lot of time looking at it. That will really tell us when it was built and what governmental body, that's what we are looking for. O.K.? (Bill) To Dave Christenson. Do you have it in your file anywhere the documentation on this? We would have, if it is a permanent levee constructed by the Corps., as a permanent project, we would have a file on that, and we would have a person from the Corps. come out and take a look at that, do an inspection on that. I don't know if they do that or not. Wright County Engineer does that all the time. Wright County, O.K. Do you know if the Corps of Engrs? I don't know if the Corps does or not. We could check on that. (Basil) What I could do is put this on the agenda next Tuesday and have Wayne Fingelson explain this all to you. He has got to have papers on that. If it is permanent Federal project that the Corps. in involved in, the city would have easements on that property. Now I don't know about the East side now. What happenes during a flood threat and they built it under an emergency situation. If it was an emergency situation, they would go in and ask for probably temporary easements just for that specific flood threat, and it would be just for that year. Basically what we would do, we would rely on the government body. I don't know if it would be Township, or it would be the County back in 1969 that we delt with, but we would rely on them to get the easements for us. Now I don't know if there was anything written though, but that is the trouble with these flood threats, it happened so fast that there may not be any written documentation. The original dike started during high water that spring, bulldozers came in about 5:00 at night and worked through the whole night. Now that was on the West side. They just took a bulldozer and bulldozed dirt right up along the riverbank. On the East side? On the West side. As I recall, that was left until the water went down and then they were letting, bids went out to complete that dike. All the way on the East side? All the way around. Now there is a land owner here from the East side, maybe he knows. Is Mr. Kluge here? Right here. Did they come to you for any easement on the dike on your land? No. There wasn't an easement. I just signed to give them permission to do it. (Bill R.) You signed an easement or some sort of documenmt, or did not? Well, to give them permission to put the dike there. (Kluge) You did? Yes. (Bill) Who did you give it to? Joe Blatz, he was working at the UPA at that time, he was the head of, cordinator of the plant at that time. I don't know. (Bill) Now Jerry, you were obviously around at that time. Everybody knows Jerry. The Township were not involved? I've never seen a document and I've been with the Township quite awhile. 1 don't think the Township was -Page 5 - involved. We have no documents. Right? Chip Martin was there. (Chip) When they came in they just said they wanted our permission to put that dike on our property. So we just signed a piece of paper, all the land owners around there signed a piece of paper saying they gave their permission to put it on there and that was that. There was no permanent easement. (Bill) Was that with the County or the Corps. Well, Joe Blatz was the one that took it and he turned it in to the Corps of Engrs. (Jerry) Joe lived on the West side at that time. He lived in the area on the West side of the dike. What was the Town or the governing body at that time? Well it wasn't anything I'd say. It could have been a case there were landowners where you had to protect the West side and you had to protect the East side too, because otherwise you would get backwash. That's what happening with my land right now. It has washed my property away, probably ten feet in the past two years. Now we will have to do some checking because it could have been that it was not considered a permanent project on the West side. It may be, again that may be a levee constructed on the public line. But if that is not a permanent project, that whole thing would be an emergency levee. What we consider an emergency levee. (Dave) (Bill) Could you then define what the definition of a permanent levee would be. Because I don't know. (Dave) Ok, a permanent levee is one which has had engineering design and analysis done on it and it is constructed in a manner using good construction techniques. For instance you would probably dig a deep trench down the middle. You would dig out a couple feet of dirt to get down to the good ground. You find out what type of soil you are building on and you use clay and build it up on both sides using an engineering design and good construction techniques. The emergency levee is one that the one the gentlemen was talking about. You get a pile of dirt and you build up with a bulldozer in four or five hours, and that's what you have. That was taken out and a trench was dug and it was done exactly like a true levee. The emergency levee was done when the water was coming up. But, after the water was receeding, there were bids taken and a permanent levee was put in. Al]. that black dirt was pushed back off, taken down to sand and the black dirt that was pushed off the levee,was put back on the levee and the rock was put on. This was all on the West side. What about the East side? The East side was left, but that was done later, that wasn't done during that emergency time. It was just the West side that was pushed up during that emergency. The East side wasn't done at that point. That was done later. That was done after the water receeded. What may have happened, is the Corps could have come back in and upgraded that emergency levee. That is probably what happened on that. It would take time, they probably went around and they built it up, but it wasn't what we consider an engineered design with plans and specs and borings and things like that. Maybe they -Page 6 - had a design to follow but, well it would work. It is not an engineering levee, but it is not an emergency levee, it is someplace in between. They had some design to go on. What it sounds like they did, they piled up dirt for the flood, the flood went down and they came back in and redid the whole stretch. That is exactly right. They took all the trees off of it and dug down.(Rolland Barthel) (Dave) That is after the flood after the water went down? (Chip) After the flood they did all the borings. (Rolland) No, they didn't. I lived there and I watched it being done. I helped work on it. That's how I know. The emergency dike was done while the water was coming up. We spent the whole night out there working. (Some discussion by Chip Martin and Rollland Barthel as to how it happened). (Dave) They may have come back later and put something down for the flood and came back and built it up afterwards. That's what they did. (Rolland) (Dave) O.K., it is still considered an emergency levee. OK and that is one of the reasons for the report that we put out. All things considered, we will have to check on that, but I don't think it is considered what we call an engineered project. O.K. An Engineered levee is basically saying that this elevation is such that it can stay there for 100 years and it's not going to get flooded out and it is not going to erode away and stuff like this. It is built on a good solid foundation. I don't know if this one does or not. It may have lines of some of that design, but I don't think it went into total design, which we call an engineered levee. Your engineers were there at the office and they told people what they wanted and so on.(Rolland) (Dave) Ya, basically what we are talking about is going through two or three years of studies, developing full plans and specs. Ya, the normal process for something like that is about four years. Ya, about three or four years to get our design, and you are talking about something that they probably did in-- I think the engineers did that. They did a super job. They really did. Look at your records and you will find it in there. What's important here is that the West side is permanent. It is just a note, but 1 tend to think that the fact that the West side wasn't surveyed again says something also. But, we don't know for sure. We have never seen a report on it. (Dave) We will do some checking on it. (Rolland) I was told as a homeowner that the West side was permanent, that's why we had to give easements. (Dave) OK, if that is the case than the East side is different than the West side? Was it engineered. Did it take awhile to get the mound of dirt, or. .They hauled in the dirt from the other side of Elk River. Did they say it was an engineered levee at the time, or that it was a permanent levee? (Chip) They did the same on the East side as the West side, except they didn't put the rip- raff and the good stuff down along towards the river, you know, the layers of the sand, and the course gravel and all of that and the rock. they didn't go down into the river at -Page 7 - all, they stayed on top of the bank. The original bank. Well, as you said,(1)--If it is a federal levee, and a permanent levee and the Corps did it, there should be an local sponsor and it is probably the County on the West side. We don't own and maintain levees, the Corps. So, we probably have turned it over to either the County...Probably. the County. Who would consider owns the temporary levee? The land owners, or what? (Dave) That's basically, the temporary levee, thats another thing, the temporary levee that is basically the land owner or the local governing body the Township or the County that they have those easements. Depending on the easements you signed and that is one of the problems, that is one of the reasons for doing this report, because that ownership...the easement that we usually get to put in an emergency levee is only good for basically the flood crisis for that one year. Basically that is good for the water coming up and down and the easements... the agreement that we sign with the local governing body is that those temporary levees should be removed right after the flood. Now, that is that is the agreement that we have with the Township or the County or some governing body. We are requiring that government body to remove it after the flood goes down. (Norm) Why would you remove it because when it floods again you have to put it back in again. (Dave) That's true. (Norm) I think you are waisting a lot of money. (Dave) One of the problems that we have, and this is one of the reasons for the report. OK, there is no responsibility for maintenance of that.. If the levee were built under emergency conditions, we have no idea what...a lot of times we don't know what it is made of, we don't know what the soil amount is. We don't know how well it is compacted, how well it is constructed and so therefore we say that if you leave it there, that the people behind it, living there will say, hey, that's a permanent levee it's been there for 20 years and it is going to be there for another 100 years. We can't say that. Well, you put it up for a reason, right? Are you saying after 20 years it will no longer hold the water out? No, what we are saying is that there is no guarantee that if we don't watch it that the levee won't fail when the water gets up there. Why would you take it completely out when you spend all that money to put it in there? It don't harm anybody, nobody objects to it. Well one of the things...is that the reason the levee is still there. And that is one of the reasons as the Corps that we are coming out and saying that it is not our levee and we built it for that one time occurance. Our Assessment man went out there and looked at it and he sort of gave us an idea of what he thought that levee was worth. How high would the water get before you would have some flooding. But, the dike was not built at the time of the emergency. It was built after the emergency. On the East side? Both of the dikes were built afterwards. That is correct. (Dave) OK, but the -Page 8 - thing is that the one on the left side they came out and said that this is a permanent levee. I was told it was a permanent levee and that is why I was asked to maintain that levee. On the East side? Don't you have any records of what transpired? Not on an emergencee levee, we wouldn't. But on the permanent levee? Ya, I have to check to find that out. (Dave). Why didn't you check it? If you are going to have a meeting why don't you come with the facts. (Dave) Well, I'll just say, I didn't realize it was a problem. (Bill) I guess we are looking at that we need both levees. Dave, why did the Army Corps do this report? What prompted that? I guess as a Town Board, we want to know, why is this important at this time? (Dave) OK, when we build a levee under emergency conditions, part of are agreement with the community is that we remove the levee following the flood threat. After that flood threat has gone, we are required to remove the levee. Purposely, we have not inforced that, in a way we are saying that we haven't gone back because if the community voted to upgrade the levee, for instance to in and get an engineering design and regrade and do that and maintain the levee. Well a new policy has come out and their policy is now that if we build a temporary structure it should be removed following the flood threat. That is one of the reasons for going out and checking this. (Doug Lindenfelser) Dave, could we just call it a permanent levee? Why do the whole thing? Just leave it. What we are doing now, we basically, are not telling the community to take it down, what we are saying is. .we are giving the community that has that structure. .giving them an idea as to what we feel that structure is worth. Is there someone happy here to take that levee out? No, what we are doing is..I don't understand how this came about. After all these years, how did this come about? Why all a sudden the concern? Basically we are concerned because we have in the past inspected the levee and come out and done a section on the levee. Just a physical repair every year and one of the problems is that we want to try and remove is that we really don't know who owns that levee. Back in 1969 and we don't have records back then...again it was a piece of paper that was signed off on and we don't know who owns that levee. Who is responsible for it. If it is a temporary levee, why the concern? Basically what we are saying is that we want to give you the best information that we have to let the people, community or orgazination that has control of the dike, let them know what they have. But, don't you agree if that levee is taken down and a flood came that we would be in more trouble than if the temporee levee was left? Well, yes, I guess if you have a structure there yes. .but if a flood came, as an Engineer, I can not guarantee that structure is going to stay there if the next flood comes. That is what we are just trying to say. That is the purpose of the report. Don't you think it would stay there long enough that people -Page 9 - could pack up their belongings and move if a flood came? If you went through the one in 1965, you would have an idea of what I am talking about. The river was running full. Suddenly the sirens were going off in town asking for volunteer sandbaggers. They started sandbagging and about three hours later, everybody took off. There was no use, the water was comming over the banks faster and faster and in a matter of five hours they had to get everybody out of there, because there was no dike. I think everybody had to move everything they could. OK, now that probably won't happen for 100 years but, again it may happen again and the next time it may be worse. Now, I think the people should have a chance to be able to get their belongings and move out and that dike is going to give them that chance. You don't have to look to volunteers and sandbaggers to give them that chance. You said you inspected every year. Right? We do a physical survey. Well, what we are doing is that is one of the problems that we had. What are you doing every year? We are going out to take a look at, OK, It it being maintained, is it being moved, is there signs of erosion. Basically that is all we take a look at. We don't know what is happening inside of the levee. I have no idea what is happening underneith it, and that is a concern that we have. Now the probability of something occuring like you say, is very unlikely, but I guess what we are saying is that my main concern is with water coming to the top of the levee. By the time it gets there, there will be nobody there anyway. Someone says, well the levee is good, it'll hold and all of a sudden it fails. But, the ground water, the water comes up through the ground. It comes slower then it would if the dike wasn't there. That is why I am saying, there won't be anybody left. Because the water will come up from out of the ground as the river continues to rise and they will be gone before it hits the top of the levee. OK, anyway it will give them time to get out. Since standing here, I don't know if that is the question. That's why I want to say, OK, this is your levee, you know, you make the decision. I can't make the decision for you weather to take it down or leave it. I mean that is your decision. But, it has held up for 20 years, and you inspect every year. How much erosion, how much damage has occured? Do you have any facts like that? Is there any reason for concern? No I don't think there is any major concern. The problem that you have and that we are concerned about is that you have minor problems now. When you have a flood coming up those minor problems are activated very quickly. If there is erosion going on now, you are talking more erosion going on during flooding. You say we have minor problems. Where are these minor problems? Where do we have them now? OK what we have..again, this was just a visual inspection of the levee and there was an erosion that we noticed. Let me find it here. I think the only erosion you have on the dike anywhere is right where it ends. Right -Page 10 - where it begins. Right ori the edge of the bank where it goes out to a wooded area. A couple houses down from me, if I had a house down there, I'd be very, very, upset the erosion is really bad. Basically, it is cutting out where the levee starts. It's sandy and steep and it just keeps cutting away and it keeps eroding out. I think that whole bank should be graded a little. One of the problems is we can't solve the problems without having action by the local people and governing body. (Norm) But, you guys are on the West side right? Right. But, that is the permanent levee, so that wouldn't be ours to begin with. If it is on the permanent levee. Right? Well, the local sponsor, whoever that is which is probably the County. What does the sponsor mean? Are we responsible, or are they responsible? For possible maintenance of the constructed levee. So they own it? They probably own the easements and are responsible for maintaining the easements. So who does that leave responsible for the part that is'nt permanent? That is basically the one who owns the property. Who should we get in touch with? We are loosing land, major land. We are before the levee, before the levee starts. Let me back up. For Army Corps to be involved in a permanent project, their law requires that they have a sponsor, and that sponsor has to be a governmental body. It can't be a private individual. and thats in their statutes, OK? Looking at the aerial photo up there, you are talking about where that little dip is. You see where that permanent one is? We walked out there and it is washing away. It is my understanding that is not part of the permanent levee. Right, but who can we contact if we want to improve that, to keep it from eroding. Like, my lot is right here. (Bill) Lets put it this way, I guess Wright Co. Planning and Zoning, landfill. I guess them and the Army Corps of Engrs. I have lost 15' in the last two years. I guess the Township has no say so, no authority, you understand? You have to go to the Corps, you have got to go to the County, and you have got to go to the DNR. Is that part of the Township there. It is in the Township. That's not to say that the Township should not sponsor some sort of a study on that. If the County did the rest we shouldn't now. The permanent is the County. I guess I would just say then with some of these facts here, we want to get moving along. What are our alternatives? Are there alternatives? Where do we stand. I guess that is really what maybe some of you people want to know. We don't know ourselves in the Township. Well, I think as referenced to the report earlier, Dave refered,to looking at the structure itself and see what you have. According to the report itself, and these are some of the people here locally. They determined that you have protection up to I think it is about 659. If that is the right elevation. Whatever it is, it is the elevation that is about equal to the 10 year frequency flood. A flood that would happen approximately every 10 years. You see that is -Page 11 - quite different then the flood in 1969. So the levee is basically not a very good structure the way it stands. As Dave has pointed out, it is really to your advantage to take to heart the information that you have in this report and look closely at the options that you have. I can say this, if you dedide that the risk of just the levee is not acceptable, and you say, hey, we don't want to go through another flood quite like we did and we have got something here now. Then you can come to the Corps and say, we want you to investigate and do a study to see what can be done to improve that levee as it exhists today. So that is a valid question. I have a form here that you can follow. It even has an example, kind of a resolution by the Town Board or the County, whoever you want to do it, but it has to be a governmental body that would initiate that request. We would do then what we call a reconnaissance study. We would have the Engineers come out and look over the levee. Not in great detail, but men and women that know enough about it from experience to do a good evaluation of it's exhisting condition and then know what it would take to upgrade it. We would get those cost figures. This would be a rather quick report, not a lot of detail, and we would get it done in a rather short time, probably in two months. We would then ask of the community to give us the best figures you have available of the value of the various structures in that area and particularly, if you have any flood damage information around from previous floods. I would like to point out now, that this kind of protection is called, it comes under a small projects flood control program and Section #205 of one of the flood control acts of Congress, and it's limitation is five million dollars. It is a program that allows us to complete the study and the engineering design and plans and specs. and get a contract award of whithin, oh it could be two to three years. It's a quick measure and produces a good product it just the matter that it is rather limited by the five million dollars. We would have to look close as to what we came up with for prospective construction estimates and your damages. We would look at your damages and call it damages prevented,equals benefits. Now the Corps of Engrs. has a mandate or a statute saying that we can only construct facilities that will give us a dollar benefit for a dollar cost. That is pretty easy to compare then. A lot of it depends upon what we would be protecting with that new construction. Often times in a rural area, where the residences are not condensed, densely populated, where you don't have industry or commerce in the area, we find that damages are not high and I don't mean that it isn't important, but if you have houses on rather large lots, you probably don't have that many houses that you want to protect. I have no idea what is protected out behind that East levee. We would look close at that then and we would come up with an evaluation and our conclusion as to weather -Page 12 - or not it is a feasible proj. or further Fed. interest is possible. We would then give you a reply. (Bill) You are talking ecnomically feasible under your Statutes? Yes (Stan Kummer, Small Proj. Div, Corps of Engr.) Now you are going to have to understand, of course, that when they do an assessment as to damages, we would have to take all the damages of the houses together, and what would be the resulting damages, versus what the cost of reconstruction or upgrade of that levee would be, and this is under your 1t205. and you are also calling for a one third, two third basis, is that right? (Bill) (Stan) I didn't get to that yet. (Bill) Well, why don't you get to that. I have worked on a bunch of #205 projects with the Army Corps. (Stan Kummer) If we come up with a feasible project, then we would initiate, and we can do this on our own authority, it doesn't have to go to Congress. We can initate a feasibility study to determine in very exact measure. Do a lot of soil borings, soils analysis, and proper design, a lot of analysis of the foundation. We would come up with the correct project for that site. The correct design. That would then have a price tag on it too, and it might be a little different than the former, but usually they are pretty close. At that time, we say "Representatives, would you like us to go forward". If we do, you are going to have to share in the cost twenty-five percent. Seventy-five percent federal. Now, back up to the feasbility study, that cost of that study would be also borne fifty-fifty. Fifty percent by the sponsoring agency and fifty percent by the Corps of Engineers. (Bill) Is the land acquisition on a 50-50 basis? (Stan) No, the land acquisition is by the local people 1006. There is a number of other things that I can read in here. So this then assumes that there is a valid project. That we are going ahead. That the City has already shared, or the Township has already shared, or the County has shared in the feasibility study, and plans and specificications and all of that and now they agree that they will share in 25% of the construction costs. In addition, the sponsoring agency agrees that they will: 1. Provide all lands, easements, right-of-way, utility reocations and alterations, and highway or bridge construction and alterations needed for project construction. 2. Hold and save the United States free from damages due to the construction works, not including damages during construction. Operation and maintenance that are due to the fault or negligence of the United States or its contractors. Adjust all claims concerning water rights. 3. Maintain and operate the project after completion in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the Army. - Page 13 - 4. Assume full responsibility for all project coots in excess of the Federal cost limitation. 5. Prevent future encroachment which might interfere with proper functioning of the project for flood control. 6. Provide a contribution toward construction costs where special local benefits will accrue in accordance with existing policies for regularly authorized projects. 7. Provide a cash contribution for project costs assigned to project features other than flood control or to satisfy local cost-sharing requirements. 8. Contribute a minimum of 25 percent up -front financing for construction. At least 5 percent of the total cost must be a cash contribution. Now, at least 5 percent will be for a cash contribution. The other 20% would be used for the land easements, rights- of-way. Anything that the sponsor contributes, that isn't cash also applies to that full 25%. That's really, I guess, all I have. Any questions? (Elaine) May I have a copy of that? Yes, I have one here. Do you want more than one? Yes, I'd better. (Bill) Yes, as a matter of fact, the way they do their small project funding is pretty well used Nation-wide. I guess though, from the Township's point of view, I guess, Basil, we are looking at the County, you are in the levee business. You've got people who inspect it. I'm wondering if that is the proper subject to draw before the County Board and see if you can take a look at that, because obviously, there is a 10 year flood on the East side of this thing. Maybe something needs to be done on the East side of this thing. It would really be in the bailywick of the County. Now, Ing, you are looking at me and smiling, but we are not trying to pass the buck on this thing, but I think you were in the business 20 years ago on this. (Basil) We can put it on the agenda, and Wayne should have something on this. (Bill), yes, the County should have. (Basil) what I want to ask is what is the matter with the dike on the East side? Do they want to tear it up, or what's the deal? That is what I want to know. (Bill) Dave, I think that question should be directed to you. Maybe you can give them an answer to that question. (Dave) Basically, the East side, It's up to you. What do you wat to do? The Corps of Engrs are not going to come out and tell you that's a good dike. So I guess it's up to you and we wanted to provide you with some information. You've had it up to 20 years. It it's not cracked. If it's not eroded away. If it is in good condition, it is up to you to - Page 14 - decide. I guess what we want to try to do is let you make tht decision. We can't make that decision for you. (Bill) As a matter of fact, what they say, is Army Corp as not a moving body. They have a lot of Staff. They do a lot of work. You have got to ask them. You have got to beg them. OK, and they do good work, don't get me wrong. But, the point is that if there is something out there is a problem, the point that there is a program for small projects. If there is a project, you need a sponsor. You need a local group to go out and do that. Now, I guess that is why the report came up and that is why we're here tonight. (Dave) It is just something that we wanted to get out of the business of the Corps of Engrs getting out of the business of telling the community that this is a good or bad levey. It is your decision, I guess. Ah, we can't say it is a good levy because we did not engineer and design it as we did on the West side. We can't say it is a bad levy, because it is still there. We want to provide you with some information so you can make a decision. The Engineering staff here. I guess under #205, if you decide this levy is no good, and we want to do something about it, we have a program here, under Section #205 to help you do that. If you say, Hey, the levy has been here for 20 years and it's going to be here for another 40 years. It looks good and there are some minor problems with erosion and stuff, we can fix that. Is there some reason why you are concerned about the levy on the East side after all these years? Has somebody been having a lot of problems? (Dave, No, I don't believe they have.) One fact that comes to mind is that the water slows down significantly after it hits the West side. It goes around some sharp corners. It goes under the bridge and then comes around so I am wondering if there isn't any erosion because it slows down when it hits that West Bank. I guess that we have had people go out there and take a look and it looks like there is some erosion going on. That's the important thing. We can't say that that's...you have an engineering staff here. You probably know the levee more than we do. You are probably wondering why UPA was involved in getting some of those easements. In 1965 that river right there, in that sharp end cut a channel from the West side to the East side right across that field. Through the road it was about 20 feet deep. UPA was very concerned about loosing the river on the other side because there ? is in there and they pull water out of there to cool their generators, and 'that is how they got involved. They were afraid that whole river was going to take a different shape, which it nearly did. Ok, up at this end where that thing is chopped out, behind that the river started breaking it's way through right directly at the three homes on the other side of the street. They had about 100 people with sandbags working as fast as they could to hold that and they didn't stop or that river would have gone. right through those three homes and cut another channel. - Page 15 - When they put the dike in, they got to that point where it broke through, but they didn't follow it fax enough around the bend, and that's why you've got that nick in there. That wasn't there at the time of that '65 flood. That's washing away really bad, the ground right there. What were talking about mostly is '69 which was just a fraction of the water of '65. In '69, downstream I heard there were very high water levels, but it was very minor in this area compared to '65. (Dave) Basically, we are not here because the corps is not involved in flood control. We are still involved in Emergency operations. Now, as we were in'69, and if you have a flooding, high water problem, erosion going on on the levee, severe erosion, don't hesitate to call us. I guess I'm not telling you not to do that. What's going to happen, if we have another flood like in '65, that guy is right, that river is going to cut through right in that elbow. You guys should go out and check it out really closely. It's a matter of when. If you're talking flooding out with that levee there. You are talking that whole peak if that levee goes. It will cut a hole through. It's already knocking one out down there. If you want to go in with that #205 that we talked about, I think that is good on the East side, but we would have to do a study of that whole area. That point there depends on what is going on on the East side and also what is going on ori the West side, and also what is going on up stream and down stream. If they do the #205, make sure that they take a look at that whole stretch through there. OK, The other problem was in 1965, that that channel had about 18' of ice stacked up and it was completely blocked off. So all the water had to take that route along the dike because it was blocked with ice. (Dave) we were just talking about, they have another program which is a possibility, the Section #14 program, which is the emergency stream bank protection program, and that may cover the situtation you are talking about here, and again, there are a lot of perimeters in it and one of them is that it has to be to protect public property. Now, you may want to get the request and once they take a look at it, and they may say if that thing floods, that levee may go, and that may be consider as public property. I don't know. But, that is also another avenue you may want to try. Does that have anything to do with the Wild and Senic River? (Elaine) (Dave) Is this a Wild and Senic River? Yes. Why did you bring that up? It's something that has to be taken into account. (Dave) We would have to take that into account, and not to say that we can't do anything on it, I guess that is you have to go with the rules on that. (Elaine) I think that they would want to protect that too, wouldn't you? (Dave) I can't speak for that agency. (Elaine) Very wise. (Dave), But, I guess, again, what I was saying, I want to go back to that emergency levee again, and just to let you know the reason why we did it is that we wanted to straighten out the - Page 16 - confusion that has been going on for the last 20 years. Or misunderstandings, I should say. You know, this is your levee, that section there on the East side, It's your levee. The prperty owners, it is my understanding, unless you can find records different to that, the property owners arc the ones who have control over that section of that levee. The Corps of Engrs doesn't have any control over it. We just want to let you know that, and that is the reason for the report. Also to let you know what we think of the levee. There is value to the levee. It's been there for 20 years, but there is problems. There is also uncertainties with that levee because it wasn't an Engineered project. That was the only reason for that report. Now there are things that you can do under the #205 study that we can try to help you with. Again, if you have problems during the high floods, I mean, during the flooding season we can come in and provide assistance. It's not that you are left high and dry, It's just that we want to let you know. Anything else you want to do on this? (Bill) (Norm) No, I just think we should wait and see what the County has got on this, and see if they have got the papers before we go any further. (Bill) Right now, it is no crisis. You know, we are not in a crisis, but the point is you really ought to find out what the facts are and you people, you are the ones that have to make up your mind in the long run, and if there is any kind of project under the #205, there is going to be a local share to pay, and that means that you local people have to make up your own minds, and if you do it with the County because of the fact that they are in the levee business. I guess really right now, Dave, you have given us a lot of information that before, I know the Town Board didn't have and that the people probably didn't have either. A lot of you are probably new and there are probably a couple that have been around a long time on this thing. (Basil) Now, Bill, the first thing you have to think about is the safety of the people. Now this thing digging into the West side. That has been there for a long time, and it needs to be checked out. (Bill) We looked at it and it is eroding. I know that this fellow over here says when are you going to have another flood. You know someday we are going to have a flood. The day is coming. It's going to come. I caught hell from Polaski Lake, and you know where Polaski Lake is.(Basil) I told them those people moved out there. They said they didn't know anything about it. They called me a balled -headed dumb farmer. I told them, I said, you can't have hair and brains both. Now they are haltering because they have got to pay the assessment. I think that people are taking rocks out of there when they go down to go fishing, and those rocks have to stay there too, right? Absolutely. (Ing) The reason the dike didn't extend further up the river, is because the property owner there wouldn't sign an easement. That was before our houses were built too. Our houses weren't built until the mid 70's. (Bill) - 17 - Unfortunately, Dave, I think you and I both know that It's too late, when they don't do those things when they should. When it's too late, you find out that they never get done. (Basil) I can put it on the Board's Agenda when the Township comes up, because they've got something on the Board's agenda we can hear the two at the same time. It that going to be Tuesday then? (Floyd) (Basil) Ya, Tuesday, we have to just set the time. (Elaine) Not tomorrow, but next week? (Floyd) next week. (Basil) The 29th, and everybody is welcome to come. (Bill) That will give Wayne Fingelson some time to dig up some documents. Maybe he can also check with Army Corps and see what they can find by then. We can get some facts on this thing so we are at least headed in the right direction. 20 years ago, unfortunately, a lot of government bodies did not keep real good records. They do have them, but people don't know what they are and they have kept them and they've got them and can't find them. You've got to be around a long time like Jerry. He remembers it all. Norm - (Norm) Any other questions on this? I think we will let the County do it. We will find any information and if anything is important we will go from there. How does that sound? At this point the meeting went on to 96th St. Concerned Citizens from Mississippi Shores. These Minutes were typed by Deputy Clerk, Elaine Beatty from a tape recording of the November 21, 1988 Meeting.