11-21-1988 Town Board MinutesState of Minnesota The Town Board of the Town of Otsego
County of Wright met this 21st day of November, 1988
Town of Otsego at 8:00 P.M. Norman Freske, Chairman
Floyd Roden and Douglas
Lindenfelser, Supervisor, James Barthel, Treasurer, Elaine
Beatty, Deputy Clerk and Jerome Perrault, Clerk were present.
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Norman
Freske.
Minutes of the November 7, 1988 Town Board Meeting were
approved as read.
First item of business was a discussion of the flood
levee along the Mississippi River by the Elk River Bridge.
Dave Christianson and Stan Kummer of the Army Corps of
Engineers, Bill Radzwill Attorney, and Pete Raatikka,
Engineer were present.
Stan Kummer of the Army Corps of Engineers said that two
floods occurred in this area, one in 1965 and one in 1969.
As the Army Corps of Engineers has the authority to come in
as an emergency measure and construct a levee to prevent
floods, this was done in 1969. He said the levee was
constructed as a temporary levee and not properly engineered.
Residents of the area said the West part of the levee (from
the bridge West) was constructed as a permanent levee with
rip -rap on the river side and the East part was constructed
as a temporary levee. Easements were obtained for the West
part of the levee. Russell Kluge, on whose farm much of the
East part of the levee sets, said that he had to sign an
agreement allowing the Corps to construct the levee.
A resident whose property is just beyond the west end of
the dike said that considerable bank erosion is occurring in
that area and will need to be controled.
Dave Christianson said that the Army Corps has the
authority under Section #205 of the 1948 Flood Control Act to
come in at the request of the local governing body (either
Township or County), and do a study of the levee and
determine it's condition, whether it is feasible to leave the
levee in place and what repairs are needed if it is left in
place. The local governing body making the request is
required to cost share the study on a 50-50 basis unless the
study costs less than $40,000, in which case it will be
completely Federal Funded. The local governing body is also
required to pay 25% of construction costs.
Dave Christenson said the Army Corps will check any
records they have of when the levee was constructed and Wayne
Fingelson, County Engineer will be asked to check County
records as the Township was not involved in the construction.
Residents of the area were quite concerned that the
levee should be left in place.
Residents of 96TH Street in Mississippi Shores were
present at the meeting to express their concern about 96TH
Street becoming a thru street into another development West
of Mississippi Shores, and the increase in traffic it will
cause. One resident said 96TH Street is now .9 of a mile and
extending it would add another 1.1 miles to it. One resident
State of Minnesota Town Board Meeting of November 21,
County of Wright 1988 - Page 2 -
Town of Otsego
suggested looping 96TH Street through Burdick's Development
and connecting it to 92ND Street instead of going straight
thru.
The Board advised the residents that more studies will
be needed of the streets in the proposed developments of
Burdick's and Darkenwald's property before a final decision
is made. The County Engineer will also need to be consulted
as the County is becoming more concerned about access to
County #39.
John Anderson was present at the meeting and said the
Cemetery Association would postpone abandoning the old well
in the Otsego Cemetery until next Spring if they properly
covered it. Abandoning the well will cost about $250.00. A
new well with a hand pump would cost about $2,000.00, and if
a new well is installed there would be no charge for
abandoning the old well.
County Commissioner Basil Schillewaert appeared before
the Board to say that he will be placing the rebuilding of
County #42 and Co. #130 on the agenda of the Commissioners
Meeting on November 29, and requested the Town Board to be
present at the meeting and speak on behalf of the project.
Motion by Floyd Roden to approve renewal of the "Off
Sale" Beer License for the Tom Thumb Store. Seconded by
Norman Freske, all Board Members voted in favor of the
motion.
Motion by Douglas Lindenfelser to grant the Otsego 4-H
Club permissio to use the Town Hall on November 28TH and
November 30TH. Seconded by Norman Freske, all Board Members
voted in favor of the motion.
Proceeding as a Board of Audit, the Town Board audited
and allowed Verified Accounts Nos. 477 to 493 inclusive.
On motion the meeting adjourned.
NORMAN F. FRESKE, CHAIRMAN SUPERVISOR
DOUG LINDENFELSER, SUPERVISOR
FLOYD RODEN, SUPERVISOR
ATTEST: JEROME PERRAULT, CLERK
JP/eb
STATE OF MINN. Town Board Meeting of November 21,
COUNTY OF WRIGHT 1988. Norman Freske, Chairman, Floyd
TOWN OF OTSEGO Roden and Douglas Lindenfelser,
Supervisors, Jim Barthel, Treasurer,
Jerome Perrault, Clerk, and Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk were
present. Also present were William Radzwill, Township
Attorney, Peter Rattikka, Township Engineer, and Dave
Christenson, General Corps. of Engrs., Emergency Management
Office and Stan Kummer, Small Projects Division of Corps. of
Engrs., Basil Schillewaert, Co. Commissioner.
The meeting was called to order at 8:00 P.M. by Chairman
Norman Freske, and Minutes of the November 7, 1988 Town Board
Meeting were read by Jerome Perrault, Clerk and approved as
read, Motioin by Douglas Lindenfelser Seconded by Floyd
Roden.
At this point the meeting was turned over by the
Chairman to William Radzwill, Township Attorney.
Good evening, I guess we wanted to have an informational
meeting by the Town Board, so this is an informational
meeting tonight, with the Army Corps. about the temporary
levee and I guess we will be making a lot of distinctions and
be asking a lot of questions ourselves as a Township because
we don't know a lot about this levee. We have never
maintained it. It is not ours. We want to know what the
Army Corps. intention is. That is why we are having the
meeting. After we get done, if anybody has any questions,
and any areas we haven't covered, we would like you people to
have some input. We are fact finding to find out what the
status is. What the Army Corps. intentions are. Who's got
liability for doing what, and who also I guess we want to
find out who's responsible for the permanent levee on the
West side of the road. The County Road up through there. We
want to take a look and find out what some of the
alternatives are and then what's the best avenue approach for
you people. Right now the Township has no liability, it's
not there levee. What we are trying to do is find out what
can be done and is there a possibility the Township can send
a message to the Army Corps.saying that we would like certain
things done, and what economic effect, or there may be
nothing to be done. We don't know. You'll kind of need to
balance all of this. So when we get done tonight, we hope to
have a great deal of information that we don't have right
now.
About two month ago, we received a report, about
September 23 I guess I did, that was prepared by 'the Army
Corps. I think it was prepared and sent out about September
19th. We reviewed it and then •the Town Board and myself and
the Town Engineer walked the temporary levee, as well as the
permanent levee. After that, we decided to have a meeting
with the Army Corps. to get more facts so we know what is
going on. This came out of the blue to us. We just wern't
aware that there were any problems with the levee, or
anything of that nature, so it gives you an idea where we are
coming from. So, this is strictly informational. So after we
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get done, some of these people may have a lot more
information than we do for the Town Board as to what has
transpired in the past and maybe where we can go in the
future. I guess at this time we have Dave Christenson who is
the Engineer for the Corps. who has been assigned by the
Corps. on a small project basis. Am I correct? (Dave) No,
basically I am in the Emergency Management Office. That
covers our Small Project Office. So maybe, Dave you can go
over and fill us in as the Board and the people as to what
has transpired and where you people are going. (Dave) O.K.
I am with the Emergency Management Office of the Corps.
of Engineers. If some of you have been around here since
1965 - 1969, I don't know who of you has lived here that
long. You know, the Corps, back then, and those are the two
major floods we have had in this area, in recent times, and I
think we had one back in 1950, I think. The flood of the
Century was back in 1965 on the Mississippi River. 1969 was
almost as bad in certain parts of the Mississippi River.
During that time under our Public Law No. 8499, which is our
emergency authority, we can when there is a flood threat,
come in and provide assistance to the communities in
construction of levee's, providing sand bags, providing
technical assistance. Our understanding, is this is what
occured back in 1969. What occured, was there was a flood
threat. The National Weather Service told us that the river
was going to come up here in Elk River, and there would be
flooding. At that time, the proceedure would have been that
we would have come in and built the levee at the request of
the local community. Now, if you have been involved in a
flood, of course, everything goes very quickly, I mean you've
got a flood threat and the water coming up, you go out there
and go into the community and the community says, and the
Corps. says to the community, we need to get your assurances
for land easements rights -of -ways in order for us to do any
levee construction. O.K., so we rely upon the community, or
the local government in that area to provide us with the
rights -of -ways and land easements and permission to go on and
build this levee. What we did, I think we stripped the
ground and cleared off all the dirt and the trees and then we
laid a sand levee. It is my understanding of the emergency
levee. Was anyone here when they built that levee. Was that
pretty much what happened? 1965 you mean? 1965, I don't
know, but we thought it was 1969 it was built. (someone in
crowd said 1969 it was built). It was built in 1969, but
1965 was the flood. You didn't get much flooding up here?
The levee worked? Let me ask that question. (Dave) (Crowd)
It's worked perfectly ever since. On the West side it has
worked perfectly. That is a permanent levee there. I was
talking about the other one on the East side. It works all
the way around. If the water came up as fast as it did in
1965, it would do a great job. It has never come up that
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fast since 1965. But, if we had another flood like that,
that dike would be just fine. (Dave) The one on the East
side? Both sides. That river came up over the banks in a
matter of hours. If that dike was not there that whole area
would be flooded in the matter of 4 or 5 hours. O.K. (Dave)
Let me ask one question. In talking about the difference in
the East side and the West side. Now, when was the West side
levee constructed? We don't know. It was all done at the
same time. (Dave) Was it done at the same time? It was done
at the same time. Yes. (Bill R.) The question is, It is
my understanding in talking to Basil Schillewaert, on the
West side which is the one with the rock on it. The County
takes care of that. Apparently they must have some kind of a
contract? Well when I told Wayne Fingelson we were meeting
on the dike, he said, you know that we take care of the West
side, and I said about the trees,I said you cut them off
because we don't want the roots to wash full of water,
because when they die they will take water in and push the
dike out. Is that right? (Dave) That's right. Now, the
question is, it is my understanding that it goes all the way
up to the point, and then the Fed. levee, the permanent
levee. The East side, that was built as an emergency measure
right? Is that correct? (Someone in crowd) That is
correct. It was all put in at the same time for the same
purpose. It was called permanent dike on the West side and
temporary dike on the East side. But it was all put in for
the same purpose. For flooding in that whole area. (Bill)
Right, do you have any reason why they distinguished between
permanent and temporary? I don't know why it became about at
the time. They rocked the permanent part and did not rock
the temporary part, because it was considered being on the
inward side of the stream so it wouldn't erode like it would
on the West side where the current was coming directly into
the bank. The ice in 1965 came into that bank so hard it
just tore it right out of there. (Bill) On the West side?
On the West side. They lost 200' of their back yard in a
matter of weeks, because that ice was hammering into those
sharp corners and it just tore it away, and that is why that
West side was rock. When they put that East side in they
didn't feel they would ever have that current coming in there
and they called it temporary at the time. (Bill) Do you
know if the Army Corps., or the people gave easements to the
Army Corps. or any governmental body? We gave easements on
the West side I know. (Bill) You live on the West side? I
live on the West side. And you gave easements to whom? To
the County. (Bill) To the County? It was either the County
or the Township, but I think it was the County at that time
and it was a permanent easement for them to come in and take
care of that dike if it needed any work. (Bill) O.K. That
was '65 or '66? No. It was after '65. '66 was bad. When
did you let the easement? Do you know? I am not sure.
(Bill) To save us some work, is there a way you can get us a
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copy of that, a photocopy of that easement? I would just
like to have a look at it, to get up-to-date. We may have
that on the title to our property. (Bill) It will be on
that. That is correct. We just want some idea so I don't
have to spend a lot of time looking at it. That will really
tell us when it was built and what governmental body, that's
what we are looking for. O.K.? (Bill) To Dave Christenson.
Do you have it in your file anywhere the documentation on
this? We would have, if it is a permanent levee constructed
by the Corps., as a permanent project, we would have a file
on that, and we would have a person from the Corps. come out
and take a look at that, do an inspection on that. I don't
know if they do that or not. Wright County Engineer does
that all the time. Wright County, O.K. Do you know if the
Corps of Engrs? I don't know if the Corps does or not. We
could check on that. (Basil) What I could do is put this on
the agenda next Tuesday and have Wayne Fingelson explain this
all to you. He has got to have papers on that. If it is
permanent Federal project that the Corps. in involved in, the
city would have easements on that property. Now I don't know
about the East side now. What happenes during a flood threat
and they built it under an emergency situation. If it was an
emergency situation, they would go in and ask for probably
temporary easements just for that specific flood threat, and
it would be just for that year. Basically what we would do,
we would rely on the government body. I don't know if it
would be Township, or it would be the County back in 1969
that we delt with, but we would rely on them to get the
easements for us. Now I don't know if there was anything
written though, but that is the trouble with these flood
threats, it happened so fast that there may not be any
written documentation. The original dike started during high
water that spring, bulldozers came in about 5:00 at night and
worked through the whole night. Now that was on the West
side. They just took a bulldozer and bulldozed dirt right up
along the riverbank. On the East side? On the West side. As
I recall, that was left until the water went down and then
they were letting, bids went out to complete that dike. All
the way on the East side? All the way around. Now there is
a land owner here from the East side, maybe he knows. Is Mr.
Kluge here? Right here. Did they come to you for any
easement on the dike on your land? No. There wasn't an
easement. I just signed to give them permission to do it.
(Bill R.) You signed an easement or some sort of documenmt,
or did not? Well, to give them permission to put the dike
there. (Kluge) You did? Yes. (Bill) Who did you give it
to? Joe Blatz, he was working at the UPA at that time, he
was the head of, cordinator of the plant at that time. I
don't know. (Bill) Now Jerry, you were obviously around at
that time. Everybody knows Jerry. The Township were not
involved? I've never seen a document and I've been with the
Township quite awhile. 1 don't think the Township was
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involved. We have no documents. Right? Chip Martin was
there. (Chip) When they came in they just said they wanted
our permission to put that dike on our property. So we just
signed a piece of paper, all the land owners around there
signed a piece of paper saying they gave their permission
to put it on there and that was that. There was no permanent
easement. (Bill) Was that with the County or the Corps.
Well, Joe Blatz was the one that took it and he turned it in
to the Corps of Engrs. (Jerry) Joe lived on the West side at
that time. He lived in the area on the West side of the
dike. What was the Town or the governing body at that time?
Well it wasn't anything I'd say. It could have been a case
there were landowners where you had to protect the West side
and you had to protect the East side too, because otherwise
you would get backwash. That's what happening with my land
right now. It has washed my property away, probably ten feet
in the past two years. Now we will have to do some checking
because it could have been that it was not considered a
permanent project on the West side. It may be, again that
may be a levee constructed on the public line. But if that
is not a permanent project, that whole thing would be an
emergency levee. What we consider an emergency levee. (Dave)
(Bill) Could you then define what the definition of a
permanent levee would be. Because I don't know. (Dave) Ok,
a permanent levee is one which has had engineering design and
analysis done on it and it is constructed in a manner using
good construction techniques. For instance you would
probably dig a deep trench down the middle. You would dig
out a couple feet of dirt to get down to the good ground.
You find out what type of soil you are building on and you
use clay and build it up on both sides using an engineering
design and good construction techniques. The emergency levee
is one that the one the gentlemen was talking about. You get
a pile of dirt and you build up with a bulldozer in four or
five hours, and that's what you have. That was taken out and
a trench was dug and it was done exactly like a true levee.
The emergency levee was done when the water was coming up.
But, after the water was receeding, there were bids taken and
a permanent levee was put in. Al]. that black dirt was pushed
back off, taken down to sand and the black dirt that was
pushed off the levee,was put back on the levee and the rock
was put on. This was all on the West side. What about the
East side? The East side was left, but that was done later,
that wasn't done during that emergency time. It was just the
West side that was pushed up during that emergency. The East
side wasn't done at that point. That was done later. That
was done after the water receeded. What may have happened,
is the Corps could have come back in and upgraded that
emergency levee. That is probably what happened on that. It
would take time, they probably went around and they built it
up, but it wasn't what we consider an engineered design with
plans and specs and borings and things like that. Maybe they
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had a design to follow but, well it would work. It is not an
engineering levee, but it is not an emergency levee, it is
someplace in between. They had some design to go on. What it
sounds like they did, they piled up dirt for the flood, the
flood went down and they came back in and redid the whole
stretch. That is exactly right. They took all the trees off
of it and dug down.(Rolland Barthel) (Dave) That is after the
flood after the water went down? (Chip) After the flood
they did all the borings. (Rolland) No, they didn't. I
lived there and I watched it being done. I helped work on
it. That's how I know. The emergency dike was done while
the water was coming up. We spent the whole night out there
working. (Some discussion by Chip Martin and Rollland Barthel
as to how it happened). (Dave) They may have come back
later and put something down for the flood and came back and
built it up afterwards. That's what they did. (Rolland)
(Dave) O.K., it is still considered an emergency levee. OK
and that is one of the reasons for the report that we put
out. All things considered, we will have to check on that,
but I don't think it is considered what we call an
engineered project. O.K. An Engineered levee is basically
saying that this elevation is such that it can stay there for
100 years and it's not going to get flooded out and it is not
going to erode away and stuff like this. It is built on a
good solid foundation. I don't know if this one does or not.
It may have lines of some of that design, but I don't think
it went into total design, which we call an engineered levee.
Your engineers were there at the office and they told people
what they wanted and so on.(Rolland) (Dave) Ya, basically
what we are talking about is going through two or three years
of studies, developing full plans and specs. Ya, the normal
process for something like that is about four years. Ya,
about three or four years to get our design, and you are
talking about something that they probably did in-- I think
the engineers did that. They did a super job. They really
did. Look at your records and you will find it in there.
What's important here is that the West side is permanent. It
is just a note, but 1 tend to think that the fact that the
West side wasn't surveyed again says something also. But, we
don't know for sure. We have never seen a report on it.
(Dave) We will do some checking on it. (Rolland) I was told
as a homeowner that the West side was permanent, that's why
we had to give easements. (Dave) OK, if that is the case
than the East side is different than the West side? Was it
engineered. Did it take awhile to get the mound of dirt,
or. .They hauled in the dirt from the other side of Elk River.
Did they say it was an engineered levee at the time, or that
it was a permanent levee? (Chip) They did the same on the
East side as the West side, except they didn't put the rip-
raff and the good stuff down along towards the river, you
know, the layers of the sand, and the course gravel and all
of that and the rock. they didn't go down into the river at
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all, they stayed on top of the bank. The original bank.
Well, as you said,(1)--If it is a federal levee, and a
permanent levee and the Corps did it, there should be an
local sponsor and it is probably the County on the West side.
We don't own and maintain levees, the Corps. So, we probably
have turned it over to either the County...Probably. the
County. Who would consider owns the temporary levee? The
land owners, or what? (Dave) That's basically, the
temporary levee, thats another thing, the temporary levee
that is basically the land owner or the local governing body
the Township or the County that they have those easements.
Depending on the easements you signed and that is one of the
problems, that is one of the reasons for doing this report,
because that ownership...the easement that we usually get to
put in an emergency levee is only good for basically the
flood crisis for that one year. Basically that is good for
the water coming up and down and the easements... the
agreement that we sign with the local governing body is that
those temporary levees should be removed right after the
flood. Now, that is that is the agreement that we have with
the Township or the County or some governing body. We are
requiring that government body to remove it after the flood
goes down. (Norm) Why would you remove it because when it
floods again you have to put it back in again. (Dave) That's
true. (Norm) I think you are waisting a lot of money.
(Dave) One of the problems that we have, and this is one of
the reasons for the report. OK, there is no responsibility
for maintenance of that.. If the levee were built under
emergency conditions, we have no idea what...a lot of times
we don't know what it is made of, we don't know what the
soil amount is. We don't know how well it is compacted, how
well it is constructed and so therefore we say that if you
leave it there, that the people behind it, living there will
say, hey, that's a permanent levee it's been there for 20
years and it is going to be there for another 100 years. We
can't say that. Well, you put it up for a reason, right?
Are you saying after 20 years it will no longer hold the
water out? No, what we are saying is that there is no
guarantee that if we don't watch it that the levee won't
fail when the water gets up there. Why would you take it
completely out when you spend all that money to put it in
there? It don't harm anybody, nobody objects to it. Well
one of the things...is that the reason the levee is still
there. And that is one of the reasons as the Corps that we
are coming out and saying that it is not our levee and we
built it for that one time occurance. Our Assessment man went
out there and looked at it and he sort of gave us an idea of
what he thought that levee was worth. How high would the
water get before you would have some flooding. But, the dike
was not built at the time of the emergency. It was built
after the emergency. On the East side? Both of the dikes
were built afterwards. That is correct. (Dave) OK, but the
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thing is that the one on the left side they came out and said
that this is a permanent levee. I was told it was a
permanent levee and that is why I was asked to maintain that
levee. On the East side? Don't you have any records of what
transpired? Not on an emergencee levee, we wouldn't. But on
the permanent levee? Ya, I have to check to find that out.
(Dave). Why didn't you check it? If you are going to have a
meeting why don't you come with the facts. (Dave) Well,
I'll just say, I didn't realize it was a problem. (Bill) I
guess we are looking at that we need both levees. Dave, why
did the Army Corps do this report? What prompted that? I
guess as a Town Board, we want to know, why is this important
at this time? (Dave) OK, when we build a levee under
emergency conditions, part of are agreement with the
community is that we remove the levee following the flood
threat. After that flood threat has gone, we are required to
remove the levee. Purposely, we have not inforced that, in a
way we are saying that we haven't gone back because if the
community voted to upgrade the levee, for instance to in
and get an engineering design and regrade and do that and
maintain the levee. Well a new policy has come out and their
policy is now that if we build a temporary structure it
should be removed following the flood threat. That is one of
the reasons for going out and checking this. (Doug
Lindenfelser) Dave, could we just call it a permanent levee?
Why do the whole thing? Just leave it. What we are doing
now, we basically, are not telling the community to take it
down, what we are saying is. .we are giving the community
that has that structure. .giving them an idea as to what we
feel that structure is worth. Is there someone happy here to
take that levee out? No, what we are doing is..I don't
understand how this came about. After all these years, how
did this come about? Why all a sudden the concern?
Basically we are concerned because we have in the past
inspected the levee and come out and done a section on the
levee. Just a physical repair every year and one of the
problems is that we want to try and remove is that we really
don't know who owns that levee. Back in 1969 and we don't
have records back then...again it was a piece of paper that
was signed off on and we don't know who owns that levee. Who
is responsible for it. If it is a temporary levee, why the
concern? Basically what we are saying is that we want to
give you the best information that we have to let the people,
community or orgazination that has control of the dike, let
them know what they have. But, don't you agree if that levee
is taken down and a flood came that we would be in more
trouble than if the temporee levee was left? Well, yes, I
guess if you have a structure there yes. .but if a flood came,
as an Engineer, I can not guarantee that structure is going
to stay there if the next flood comes. That is what we are
just trying to say. That is the purpose of the report.
Don't you think it would stay there long enough that people
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could pack up their belongings and move if a flood came? If
you went through the one in 1965, you would have an idea of
what I am talking about. The river was running full.
Suddenly the sirens were going off in town asking for
volunteer sandbaggers. They started sandbagging and about
three hours later, everybody took off. There was no use, the
water was comming over the banks faster and faster and in a
matter of five hours they had to get everybody out of there,
because there was no dike. I think everybody had to move
everything they could. OK, now that probably won't happen
for 100 years but, again it may happen again and the next
time it may be worse. Now, I think the people should have a
chance to be able to get their belongings and move out and
that dike is going to give them that chance. You don't have
to look to volunteers and sandbaggers to give them that
chance. You said you inspected every year. Right? We do a
physical survey. Well, what we are doing is that is one of
the problems that we had. What are you doing every year? We
are going out to take a look at, OK, It it being maintained,
is it being moved, is there signs of erosion. Basically that
is all we take a look at. We don't know what is happening
inside of the levee. I have no idea what is happening
underneith it, and that is a concern that we have. Now the
probability of something occuring like you say, is very
unlikely, but I guess what we are saying is that my main
concern is with water coming to the top of the levee. By the
time it gets there, there will be nobody there anyway.
Someone says, well the levee is good, it'll hold and all of a
sudden it fails. But, the ground water, the water comes up
through the ground. It comes slower then it would if the
dike wasn't there. That is why I am saying, there won't be
anybody left. Because the water will come up from out of the
ground as the river continues to rise and they will be gone
before it hits the top of the levee. OK, anyway it will give
them time to get out. Since standing here, I don't know if
that is the question. That's why I want to say, OK, this is
your levee, you know, you make the decision. I can't make
the decision for you weather to take it down or leave it. I
mean that is your decision. But, it has held up for 20
years, and you inspect every year. How much erosion, how
much damage has occured? Do you have any facts like that?
Is there any reason for concern? No I don't think there is
any major concern. The problem that you have and that we are
concerned about is that you have minor problems now. When
you have a flood coming up those minor problems are activated
very quickly. If there is erosion going on now, you are
talking more erosion going on during flooding. You say we
have minor problems. Where are these minor problems? Where
do we have them now? OK what we have..again, this was just a
visual inspection of the levee and there was an erosion that
we noticed. Let me find it here. I think the only erosion
you have on the dike anywhere is right where it ends. Right
-Page 10 -
where it begins. Right ori the edge of the bank where it goes
out to a wooded area. A couple houses down from me, if I had
a house down there, I'd be very, very, upset the erosion is
really bad. Basically, it is cutting out where the levee
starts. It's sandy and steep and it just keeps cutting away
and it keeps eroding out. I think that whole bank should be
graded a little. One of the problems is we can't solve the
problems without having action by the local people and
governing body. (Norm) But, you guys are on the West side
right? Right. But, that is the permanent levee, so that
wouldn't be ours to begin with. If it is on the permanent
levee. Right? Well, the local sponsor, whoever that is which
is probably the County. What does the sponsor mean? Are we
responsible, or are they responsible? For possible
maintenance of the constructed levee. So they own it? They
probably own the easements and are responsible for
maintaining the easements. So who does that leave
responsible for the part that is'nt permanent? That is
basically the one who owns the property. Who should we get
in touch with? We are loosing land, major land. We are
before the levee, before the levee starts. Let me back up.
For Army Corps to be involved in a permanent project, their
law requires that they have a sponsor, and that sponsor has
to be a governmental body. It can't be a private individual.
and thats in their statutes, OK? Looking at the aerial photo
up there, you are talking about where that little dip is.
You see where that permanent one is? We walked out there and
it is washing away. It is my understanding that is not part
of the permanent levee. Right, but who can we contact if we
want to improve that, to keep it from eroding. Like, my lot
is right here. (Bill) Lets put it this way, I guess Wright
Co. Planning and Zoning, landfill. I guess them and the Army
Corps of Engrs. I have lost 15' in the last two years. I
guess the Township has no say so, no authority, you
understand? You have to go to the Corps, you have got to go
to the County, and you have got to go to the DNR. Is that
part of the Township there. It is in the Township. That's
not to say that the Township should not sponsor some sort of
a study on that. If the County did the rest we shouldn't
now. The permanent is the County. I guess I would just say
then with some of these facts here, we want to get moving
along. What are our alternatives? Are there alternatives?
Where do we stand. I guess that is really what maybe some of
you people want to know. We don't know ourselves in the
Township. Well, I think as referenced to the report earlier,
Dave refered,to looking at the structure itself and see what
you have. According to the report itself, and these are some
of the people here locally. They determined that you have
protection up to I think it is about 659. If that is the
right elevation. Whatever it is, it is the elevation that is
about equal to the 10 year frequency flood. A flood that
would happen approximately every 10 years. You see that is
-Page 11 -
quite different then the flood in 1969. So the levee is
basically not a very good structure the way it stands. As
Dave has pointed out, it is really to your advantage to take
to heart the information that you have in this report and
look closely at the options that you have. I can say this,
if you dedide that the risk of just the levee is not
acceptable, and you say, hey, we don't want to go through
another flood quite like we did and we have got something
here now. Then you can come to the Corps and say, we want
you to investigate and do a study to see what can be done to
improve that levee as it exhists today. So that is a valid
question. I have a form here that you can follow. It even
has an example, kind of a resolution by the Town Board or the
County, whoever you want to do it, but it has to be a
governmental body that would initiate that request. We would
do then what we call a reconnaissance study. We would have
the Engineers come out and look over the levee. Not in great
detail, but men and women that know enough about it from
experience to do a good evaluation of it's exhisting
condition and then know what it would take to upgrade it. We
would get those cost figures. This would be a rather quick
report, not a lot of detail, and we would get it done in a
rather short time, probably in two months. We would then ask
of the community to give us the best figures you have
available of the value of the various structures in that area
and particularly, if you have any flood damage information
around from previous floods. I would like to point out now,
that this kind of protection is called, it comes under a
small projects flood control program and Section #205 of one
of the flood control acts of Congress, and it's limitation is
five million dollars. It is a program that allows us to
complete the study and the engineering design and plans and
specs. and get a contract award of whithin, oh it could be
two to three years. It's a quick measure and produces a good
product it just the matter that it is rather limited by the
five million dollars. We would have to look close as to what
we came up with for prospective construction estimates and
your damages. We would look at your damages and call it
damages prevented,equals benefits. Now the Corps of Engrs.
has a mandate or a statute saying that we can only construct
facilities that will give us a dollar benefit for a dollar
cost. That is pretty easy to compare then. A lot of it
depends upon what we would be protecting with that new
construction. Often times in a rural area, where the
residences are not condensed, densely populated, where you
don't have industry or commerce in the area, we find that
damages are not high and I don't mean that it isn't
important, but if you have houses on rather large lots, you
probably don't have that many houses that you want to
protect. I have no idea what is protected out behind that
East levee. We would look close at that then and we would
come up with an evaluation and our conclusion as to weather
-Page 12 -
or not it is a feasible proj. or further Fed. interest is
possible. We would then give you a reply. (Bill) You are
talking ecnomically feasible under your Statutes? Yes (Stan
Kummer, Small Proj. Div, Corps of Engr.) Now you are going
to have to understand, of course, that when they do an
assessment as to damages, we would have to take all the
damages of the houses together, and what would be the
resulting damages, versus what the cost of reconstruction or
upgrade of that levee would be, and this is under your 1t205.
and you are also calling for a one third, two third basis, is
that right? (Bill) (Stan) I didn't get to that yet. (Bill)
Well, why don't you get to that. I have worked on a bunch of
#205 projects with the Army Corps.
(Stan Kummer) If we come up with a feasible project,
then we would initiate, and we can do this on our own
authority, it doesn't have to go to Congress. We can initate
a feasibility study to determine in very exact measure. Do a
lot of soil borings, soils analysis, and proper design, a lot
of analysis of the foundation. We would come up with the
correct project for that site. The correct design. That
would then have a price tag on it too, and it might be a
little different than the former, but usually they are pretty
close. At that time, we say "Representatives, would you like
us to go forward". If we do, you are going to have to share
in the cost twenty-five percent. Seventy-five percent
federal. Now, back up to the feasbility study, that cost of
that study would be also borne fifty-fifty. Fifty percent by
the sponsoring agency and fifty percent by the Corps of
Engineers. (Bill) Is the land acquisition on a 50-50 basis?
(Stan) No, the land acquisition is by the local people 1006.
There is a number of other things that I can read in here. So
this then assumes that there is a valid project. That we are
going ahead. That the City has already shared, or the
Township has already shared, or the County has shared in the
feasibility study, and plans and specificications and all of
that and now they agree that they will share in 25% of the
construction costs. In addition, the sponsoring agency
agrees that they will:
1. Provide all lands, easements, right-of-way, utility
reocations and alterations, and highway or bridge
construction and alterations needed for project construction.
2. Hold and save the United States free from damages
due to the construction works, not including damages during
construction. Operation and maintenance that are due to the
fault or negligence of the United States or its contractors.
Adjust all claims concerning water rights.
3. Maintain and operate the project after completion in
accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of
the Army.
- Page 13 -
4. Assume full responsibility for all project coots in
excess of the Federal cost limitation.
5. Prevent future encroachment which might interfere
with proper functioning of the project for flood control.
6. Provide a contribution toward construction costs
where special local benefits will accrue in accordance with
existing policies for regularly authorized projects.
7. Provide a cash contribution for project costs
assigned to project features other than flood control or to
satisfy local cost-sharing requirements.
8. Contribute a minimum of 25 percent up -front
financing for construction. At least 5 percent of the total
cost must be a cash contribution.
Now, at least 5 percent will be for a cash contribution.
The other 20% would be used for the land easements, rights-
of-way. Anything that the sponsor contributes, that isn't
cash also applies to that full 25%. That's really, I guess,
all I have. Any questions? (Elaine) May I have a copy of
that? Yes, I have one here. Do you want more than one?
Yes, I'd better.
(Bill) Yes, as a matter of fact, the way they do their
small project funding is pretty well used Nation-wide. I
guess though, from the Township's point of view, I guess,
Basil, we are looking at the County, you are in the levee
business. You've got people who inspect it. I'm wondering
if that is the proper subject to draw before the County Board
and see if you can take a look at that, because obviously,
there is a 10 year flood on the East side of this thing.
Maybe something needs to be done on the East side of this
thing. It would really be in the bailywick of the County.
Now, Ing, you are looking at me and smiling, but we are not
trying to pass the buck on this thing, but I think you were
in the business 20 years ago on this. (Basil) We can put it
on the agenda, and Wayne should have something on this.
(Bill), yes, the County should have. (Basil)
what I want to ask is what is the matter with the dike on the
East side? Do they want to tear it up, or what's the deal?
That is what I want to know. (Bill) Dave, I think that
question should be directed to you. Maybe you can give them
an answer to that question.
(Dave) Basically, the East side, It's up to you. What do
you wat to do? The Corps of Engrs are not going to come out
and tell you that's a good dike. So I guess it's up to you
and we wanted to provide you with some information. You've
had it up to 20 years. It it's not cracked. If it's not
eroded away. If it is in good condition, it is up to you to
- Page 14 -
decide. I guess what we want to try to do is let you make
tht decision. We can't make that decision for you.
(Bill) As a matter of fact, what they say, is Army Corp as
not a moving body. They have a lot of Staff. They do a lot
of work. You have got to ask them. You have got to beg
them. OK, and they do good work, don't get me wrong. But,
the point is that if there is something out there is a
problem, the point that there is a program for small
projects. If there is a project, you need a sponsor. You
need a local group to go out and do that. Now, I guess that
is why the report came up and that is why we're here tonight.
(Dave) It is just something that we wanted to get out of the
business of the Corps of Engrs getting out of the business of
telling the community that this is a good or bad levey. It
is your decision, I guess. Ah, we can't say it is a good
levy because we did not engineer and design it as we did on
the West side. We can't say it is a bad levy, because it is
still there. We want to provide you with some information
so you can make a decision. The Engineering staff here. I
guess under #205, if you decide this levy is no good, and we
want to do something about it, we have a program here, under
Section #205 to help you do that. If you say, Hey, the levy
has been here for 20 years and it's going to be here for
another 40 years. It looks good and there are some minor
problems with erosion and stuff, we can fix that. Is there
some reason why you are concerned about the levy on the East
side after all these years? Has somebody been having a lot
of problems? (Dave, No, I don't believe they have.) One
fact that comes to mind is that the water slows down
significantly after it hits the West side. It goes around
some sharp corners. It goes under the bridge and then comes
around so I am wondering if there isn't any erosion because
it slows down when it hits that West Bank. I guess that we
have had people go out there and take a look and it looks
like there is some erosion going on. That's the important
thing. We can't say that that's...you have an engineering
staff here. You probably know the levee more than we do.
You are probably wondering why UPA was involved in getting
some of those easements. In 1965 that river right there, in
that sharp end cut a channel from the West side to the East
side right across that field. Through the road it was about
20 feet deep. UPA was very concerned about loosing the
river on the other side because there ? is in there and they
pull water out of there to cool their generators, and 'that is
how they got involved. They were afraid that whole river was
going to take a different shape, which it nearly did. Ok, up
at this end where that thing is chopped out, behind that the
river started breaking it's way through right directly at the
three homes on the other side of the street. They had about
100 people with sandbags working as fast as they could to
hold that and they didn't stop or that river would have gone.
right through those three homes and cut another channel.
- Page 15 -
When they put the dike in, they got to that point where it
broke through, but they didn't follow it fax enough around
the bend, and that's why you've got that nick in there. That
wasn't there at the time of that '65 flood. That's washing
away really bad, the ground right there. What were talking
about mostly is '69 which was just a fraction of the water of
'65. In '69, downstream I heard there were very high water
levels, but it was very minor in this area compared to '65.
(Dave) Basically, we are not here because the corps is not
involved in flood control. We are still involved in
Emergency operations. Now, as we were in'69, and if you have
a flooding, high water problem, erosion going on on the
levee, severe erosion, don't hesitate to call us. I guess
I'm not telling you not to do that.
What's going to happen, if we have another flood like in '65,
that guy is right, that river is going to cut through right
in that elbow. You guys should go out and check it out
really closely. It's a matter of when. If you're talking
flooding out with that levee there. You are talking that
whole peak if that levee goes. It will cut a hole through.
It's already knocking one out down there. If you want to go
in with that #205 that we talked about, I think that is good
on the East side, but we would have to do a study of that
whole area. That point there depends on what is going on on
the East side and also what is going on ori the West side, and
also what is going on up stream and down stream. If they do
the #205, make sure that they take a look at that whole
stretch through there. OK, The other problem was in 1965,
that that channel had about 18' of ice stacked up and it was
completely blocked off. So all the water had to take that
route along the dike because it was blocked with ice. (Dave)
we were just talking about, they have another program which
is a possibility, the Section #14 program, which is the
emergency stream bank protection program, and that may cover
the situtation you are talking about here, and again, there
are a lot of perimeters in it and one of them is that it has
to be to protect public property. Now, you may want to get
the request and once they take a look at it, and they may say
if that thing floods, that levee may go, and that may be
consider as public property. I don't know. But, that is
also another avenue you may want to try. Does that have
anything to do with the Wild and Senic River? (Elaine) (Dave)
Is this a Wild and Senic River? Yes. Why did you bring that
up? It's something that has to be taken into account. (Dave)
We would have to take that into account, and not to say that
we can't do anything on it, I guess that is you have to go
with the rules on that. (Elaine) I think that they would
want to protect that too, wouldn't you? (Dave) I can't
speak for that agency. (Elaine) Very wise. (Dave), But, I
guess, again, what I was saying, I want to go back to that
emergency levee again, and just to let you know the reason
why we did it is that we wanted to straighten out the
- Page 16 -
confusion that has been going on for the last 20 years.
Or misunderstandings, I should say. You know, this is your
levee, that section there on the East side, It's your levee.
The prperty owners, it is my understanding, unless you can
find records different to that, the property owners arc the
ones who have control over that section of that levee. The
Corps of Engrs doesn't have any control over it. We just want
to let you know that, and that is the reason for the report.
Also to let you know what we think of the levee. There is
value to the levee. It's been there for 20 years, but there
is problems. There is also uncertainties with that levee
because it wasn't an Engineered project. That was the only
reason for that report. Now there are things that you can do
under the #205 study that we can try to help you with.
Again, if you have problems during the high floods, I mean,
during the flooding season we can come in and provide
assistance. It's not that you are left high and dry, It's
just that we want to let you know. Anything else you want to
do on this? (Bill) (Norm) No, I just think we should wait
and see what the County has got on this, and see if they have
got the papers before we go any further. (Bill) Right now,
it is no crisis. You know, we are not in a crisis, but the
point is you really ought to find out what the facts are and
you people, you are the ones that have to make up your mind
in the long run, and if there is any kind of project under
the #205, there is going to be a local share to pay, and that
means that you local people have to make up your own minds,
and if you do it with the County because of the fact that
they are in the levee business. I guess really right now,
Dave, you have given us a lot of information that before, I
know the Town Board didn't have and that the people probably
didn't have either. A lot of you are probably new and there
are probably a couple that have been around a long time on
this thing. (Basil) Now, Bill, the first thing you have to
think about is the safety of the people. Now this thing
digging into the West side. That has been there for a long
time, and it needs to be checked out. (Bill) We looked at
it and it is eroding. I know that this fellow over here says
when are you going to have another flood. You know someday
we are going to have a flood. The day is coming. It's going
to come. I caught hell from Polaski Lake, and you know where
Polaski Lake is.(Basil) I told them those people moved out
there. They said they didn't know anything about it. They
called me a balled -headed dumb farmer. I told them, I said,
you can't have hair and brains both. Now they are haltering
because they have got to pay the assessment. I think that
people are taking rocks out of there when they go down to go
fishing, and those rocks have to stay there too, right?
Absolutely. (Ing) The reason the dike didn't extend further
up the river, is because the property owner there wouldn't
sign an easement. That was before our houses were built too.
Our houses weren't built until the mid 70's. (Bill)
- 17 -
Unfortunately, Dave, I think you and I both know that It's
too late, when they don't do those things when they should.
When it's too late, you find out that they never get done.
(Basil) I can put it on the Board's Agenda when the Township
comes up, because they've got something on the Board's agenda
we can hear the two at the same time. It that going to be
Tuesday then? (Floyd) (Basil) Ya, Tuesday, we have to just
set the time. (Elaine) Not tomorrow, but next week? (Floyd)
next week. (Basil) The 29th, and everybody is welcome to
come. (Bill) That will give Wayne Fingelson some time to
dig up some documents. Maybe he can also check with Army
Corps and see what they can find by then. We can get some
facts on this thing so we are at least headed in the right
direction. 20 years ago, unfortunately, a lot of government
bodies did not keep real good records. They do have them,
but people don't know what they are and they have kept them
and they've got them and can't find them. You've got to be
around a long time like Jerry. He remembers it all. Norm -
(Norm) Any other questions on this? I think we will let the
County do it. We will find any information and if anything
is important we will go from there. How does that sound?
At this point the meeting went on to 96th St. Concerned
Citizens from Mississippi Shores.
These Minutes were typed by Deputy Clerk, Elaine Beatty from
a tape recording of the November 21, 1988 Meeting.