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08-16-1994 Informational Meeting MinutesFILE CCWS7794.WPS. CITY OF OTSEGO, COUNTY OF WRIGHT, STATE OF MINNESOTA CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL COUNCIL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 AT 7:30PM - HALLS WATERSHED 1 Meeting will be called to order by Mayor Norman F Freske: Mayor Norman F Freske called the meeting to order at 7:40PM. Mayor Norm Freske explained the Hearing. Roll Call: Norman F Freske, Mayor, Doug Lindenfelser, Floyd Roden, Larry Fournier and Ron Black, Council were present. Also present were Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk/Zoning Administrator and Judy Hudson, Secretary. Larry Koshak, City Engineer and John Harwood, City Engineer were present from Hakanson Anderson & Assoc. I •• •I .o, • 11- .•r .• i., I" Larry Koshak explained the project, gave handouts, talked about the handout. He introduced John Harwood who would go through the hydrology. He explained that this is an Informational Meeting. The City of Otsego has received many many complaints about stormwater flooding and septic tank drainfields, and the water table. The Council has secured some photography and contours. Mark Hurd is the supplier. We can show basically where everything drains, surface -wise. We want to present that information tonight, especially in the Halls Watershed area. We are talking about drainage and it ends up in Halls pond. Halls pond has an outlet. It was put in in 1986 so it can get to the river. Previously there was no outlet. We have done some preliminary hydrology. We will express some of our opinions and then we will take comments. No decisions can be made here tonight. We can formulate a policy. We can initiate projects, or simply do nothing. The reason for this meeting is to provide this information to you, so you are informed as to what the problems are. If you wish to petition the Council, you are free to do so. Two foot (2') countours are in the data provided. We are talking about over -land flows. Groundwater was in our studies, but it is difficult to get a handle on that, at this time. In the Halls Pond there was an assessment prepared for that project. That was assessed to the benefited properties for that outlet to the river. It was mentioned at those hearings that there would be laterals and subtrunks to be put in and there would be potentially some additional assessments. The assessment at that time was only for the outlet to the Halls Pond. Larry Koshak showed a map and the area that was assessed at that time. Letter E and the boundary was shown. He went over the boundry of the assessment area. That boundary at that time was determined based on developed property. At this point we will find that our contour map is basically a larger watershed than the assessment appeared on that outlet. We will leave that fact lie until John gets finished with his presentation. Since the Halls Pond Construction there has been heavy rains and a wet spring in 1994. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 2 - A lot of homeowners were at City Hall looking for some solutions. It takes time to make the proper decision and have the right tools. Larry Koshak then turned the meeting over to John Harwood. -.I • I • •! $11•• .$$S ,'-- John Harwood gave his presentation. We received the Topo mapping three weeks ago. 200 feet to the inch is the scale. On one map it's 400 feet to the inch. The topo information is invaluable information, as to where the water goes. It is fairly accurate, it has 2 foot elevations and gives a good overall picture. The first exhibit is an overall map showing three basic drainage sub -districts, districts A, B and Sub -district C. Those are three outlying Districts that suround the original Halls pond area. Area A is an area that is a tributary at 88th and Obrian. All the water from this area drains from a series of ponds to the 88th and Obrian area. He explained further. At the current time, there is a lot of groundwater. The Southwest corner is an area of DNR wetland 4 W. It is from 83rd to 85TH and West of Nashua. Approximately 198 acres drains into this weland. There is 90 acre feet of storage. Normal elevation of 911 feet. High elevation of 915 feet. Anything above 915 feet is considered a flood. He explained further the 100 year run off is 48 acre feet of water. With 90 Acre feet of storage there is capacity,in this pond, to store the runoff. Other areas of the district, the Southeast part is 53-1/2 acres in Vasseurs area. There is no stormwater storage. John discussed the significant flooding and the stormwater system across 85th. He talked about the farm adjoining Vasseurs. There is standing water until that system does outlet. He explained the third system with a normal elevations of 899 feet, with 906 feet as the flood level of that area. This whole system, as far as ponding, has proper storage. There is a problem South of 85th. There is a 5 foot difference in elevation and the 894 feet is the elevation of the houses in the Northeast section of this watershed area. The problem is due to runoff in area A. AREA B: Great River Acres area (South of Co. 39 to 90th and Odean Avenue (East of Nashua Avenue) is 47 acres low density with significant open space and it is more developed than the previous district. On 45 acres to the Southwest area (West of Nashua Ave) there is a wetland that drains to Otsego Creek. There is a ridgeline that runs thru and keeps most of the water North flowing out to the road. The area Northwest by the ridgeline drains along the road to the wetland to the South. It is mostly woods there and quite wild. A fairly large area drains there (South of 90th Street) the three areas have a total of 82 acres that drain to them. (not enough storage for design events) The entire area Northeast of Nelmark drains without internal ponding. The East side of the road is very wet. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16,1994 Page - 3 - There is a series of low swale areas. The Northeast corner flows to Odean Ave. There is no well defined outlet in the Northeast area. Generally there is a problem with a lack of available storage. AREA C: Tributary to a point on 85th Street (East of Obrian Ave.) 331 feet of wetland (DNR), Southwest 944 feet and pond at 938 feet (79th and Obrian Ave). There are several houses next to that pond. Flow is thru the pond to the wetland 331 feet West. There is adequate storage with proper control without flood damage. Flow goes North to 85th Street. In Vasseurs Oak Grove Subdivision there is a fairly large area that drains to the Northeast corner of Area C, with no storage or ponding there is a real flood problem. Outflow is at a very low rate at this point and there is not much down stream impact. The next exhibit is the central part of the system. It is a pipe system that would serve these areas. He explained the elevations and system of pipes. On 85th Street North existing ditch would be used to take the water North. It would serve as a lateral system also. We have identified a system and boundaries. Other systems could be used. We could route it up to the Mississippi river. Area C has been the plan of the City to have 85th Street as a MSA RD. On 85th Street a storm sewer could be put in. We have good basic information, and we could take some questions. Larry Koshak brought up the influence of Sec. 30 pond. The Southwest corner is Sec. 30 Wetland. It has an outlet directed towards Otsego Creek where there is small control. There is apparently enough influence on the groundwater. It drains toward the North. It appears to be the natural way the water has run for years. We are restricted to what we do by the DNR. We can't destroy or drain wetlands or significatly change a wetland without getting permission from the DNR. There are other government agencies that will influence our decision. John has shown a lot of options and there are possibly others. The Council has ordered a drainage plan for the entire Urban Service Area. We will continue to work on storm water management and future policies, including financing methods, how to administer and policing. The Council created a financing district for the Otsego Creek watershed, this method places a tax on the district. Maintenance is a key expense. Ditches are high maintenance and it takes money to keep those things in good shape. Many communities have a fee for Developers for stormwater facilities. Lastly there are assessments. They are applied to the benefited properties. This will all have to be looked at. Improvements will be required if the City continues to develop. The rain falls equally on everybody. Each parcel of land is responsible for its own runoff. The lower area is where the people are experiencing the water problems. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 - 4 - A petition must be signed and presented to the City if you support a project and 3/5 vote is required by the Councl. We are just providing information. Meeting was turned over to Mayor Norman F Freske. 4. Questions from City Council: If you have a question please come to the microphone and state your name, for the record. 5. Questions from the public: Rod Bangstor - How expensive is the problem and which areas are affected? Larry Koshak said the problem threatens property damage in the Obrian Ave., 88thStreet and 90th Street area. Larry showed the area on the map. We are not aware of damage that occured. The City has not had notification of costs from damage. I assume there has been some. Al Beaudry asked if we had talked about going to the County for help. They issued the building permits in the first place. Norman F Freske said we haven't asked the County now, but in the past we have, and received no help. Cicil Adams of 78th Street - (Sec. C) - I have lived here for 23 years. Several years ago the Council tried to solve our water problem. The City ditches don't run the right way or culverts in streets are not in the right places. I could show you the three acres we have. We take water from six Lots and the farmers field behind us. We have to pump it out to our driveway, where the City ditch will then take it. That problem can be solved by looking at the ditches. Our water goes to 80th Street and 79th Street to neighbors. It goes to his property before it can go across the street. I think these areas need to be looked at. Norman F Freske said there used to be tiles there, but after 40 years they are not working anymore. Larry Koshak said they have recognized the problem. The Public Works Dept. has a long list of problems and culverts to correct. We have many similar problems in the City with only three Public Works people. Mrs. Adams asked how long will it take? Norm said they can put it on the next Public Works Meeitng. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 5 - Ford Slaughter - We made a deal with the people South of us to drain thru the creek without it being dug out. It was a pertty good thing for them. I know Mr Goenner has problems with it too. I think our place is one of the prettiest places around there. To bail everybody else out, it would look like a tornado there. Floyd Roden said he didn't know if it were necessary to go that way. With Adams we could probably do a study with the aeriels. Hopefully that can help us. Larry Koshak felt one of the solutions is finding enough ponding area. There is a possibility of ponding on Kincanons property. Norman F Freske said the mapping did cost $40,000.00. It was more reasonable because we worked with the County on it. There are reasons for the delays. Steve Wiltermuth said we moved on Obrian Avenue 21 years ago and at that time we did perk tests and didn't have any problem. We have Oaks and Elms and they don't grow in swamps. It is not a swampy area. I hear of farmers tiling into the pond on Nashua Avenue and 85th Street and watch the water added North of that area. I believe that our problem has been compounded. As a community we need to solve the problem. Surface water is only half the problem and groundwater is the other. What effect would a project have on the groundwater? John Harwood said we can drain the groundwater with pipes. A lot of what we do with ponding can help lower groundwater. In general stormsewer systems don't lower goundwater. Generally it is not a big help on groundwater unless you take the steps. Mayor Freske asked John if groundwater is worse than overflow. John said he suspects there is high groundwater and the major problem is springtime with run off there is no elevation difference. The area behind their houses is very flat. It needs a drain in that area. It ultimately serves that entire drainage area. Larry Koshak said we find the overflow from the pond cannot go back to Otsego Creek. The natural flow goes to the Northeast. There is a ridge 894 feet to the Northeast that prevents the water from going into Otsego Acres. Doug Lindenfelser asked if we could put a line down Nashua Avenue to Otsego Creek, to control the elevation on Luconic's pond. Larry said it is a possibility, but the cut would be 15 feet or so. We would need permission from the DNR to take it 1-1/2 feet below the high water mark. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 6 - Larry Koshak said we would have to get permission from the DNR if you want it to go to Halls Pond. Mr Dan Lais, DNR, didn't think it was a good idea to take it to Otsego Creek. Floyd Goenner asked what would be the difference? You would keep it the same level there. It would be cheaper to go to the creek.(about 113 of the cost) Doug Lindenfelser asked if the cut would be as deep across Luconics land? Russ Voght said it is draining from Nashua Avenue past the City hall. John said hydraulically it would work very well. Larry Koshak said it is over 112 mile of pipe. It is an option we can check out, but somebody has to pay for it. Steve Wiltermuth said if you go to the furthest Northeast corner of Obrian Avenue and 90th Street, there is groundwater sitting there right now. Where would that water go? ) John said it all goes Southeast to Halls Pond. A ditch along the road could change that. Steve Wiltermuth asked if that would be part of the program? Answered, not at this point. Steve Wiltermuth asked if that would still be sitting on top of the gound? Much of the water goes down to 90th Street and Obrian Avenue. Larry Koshak said we would probably have to take that pipe out on Obrian and defer it all down to 88th St. It is part of the groundwater there. It has to go down to Halls Pond, which would eleminate a lot of the flow. The City of Otsego owns this lot and the piece of right-of-way. Russ Voght said in 1970 we bought our land and it is in a floodplain. The whole area is a floodplain. I knew we would always have water in our back yard. I don't know why we have to be penalized. It goes all the way out to Rich LeFebvres Land. We have been diverting water for 25 years and I knew my options when I bought it. Rod Bangston asked how many homes are being effected? Is it an area or just a few homes? Norman F Freske said this spring this whole area was affected. That is why we are here. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 7 - Al Beaudry - When they put the tube in I was assessed $1,625.00. They are living in a swamp, so why try to change it now and assess all the people around it. Thats not fair. Denise McAlpine - Is this the same kind of tile that was put in the James Addition? At that time surveys were done and we were told anything West of Nashua was not part of that drainage problem. At that time there was extensive testing, etc. I would like somebody to explain. Larry Koshak said we didnt have the countour maps to distinguish where the water runs. It's entirely different now. Spot elevations were taken at that time. The solution was limited to the developed area. That was not included in the project. Denise McAlpine- The new drainage on 85th Street was three years ago. How long has this issue been a problem. Answered It depends on the rainfall. Ford Slaughter said basically everyone up there says it does the job, but not in 10 minutes, but within a day or so. The issue of going thru our place and digging way down. There is a lot of water that goes thru this thing. Denise McAlpine said the pond on the level of 916 feet has not even reached its level yet. How could it be flooding homes? I don't see why we are involved in this drainage problem. It seems the culvert is containing what it is supposed to. I am wondering if the water is coming from 85th Street. Doug Lindenfelser said there is water flowing thru the culvert on Nashua Avenue now. Denise said she didnt see how that could be. Also on 83rd and Nashua there are no culverts there for the water to run. On 83rd Street North and South, there are weeds and no water going thru the culvert. Where is the water coming from for these ponds to be flooding the homes? Larry Koshak said 4W is operating very well. It has a lot of capacity and in the culverts the elevation of water is pretty much between the North and South side of 83rd Street. The water seeks its own level. Denise said the water level has gone up in my front yard. Doug Lindenfelser said it runs into the LuConic's Wetland. Denise said the 85th Street area is causing more problems. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 8 - Norman F Freske said that is why we had the mapping done and that is why we are here. Denise said what is the City going to do when Ag. land develops. What is the City going to do to remedy the breaking up of the draintiles. Larry Koshak said the City will have a stormwater drainage plan. When a Developer comes in within the Urban Service Area there will be a perscribed way they can develop their properties, if adopted by the Council. The stormwater management plan will develop an established policy. Denise McAlpine questioned if the developer would pay when they come in. I hope the City Council will strongly think about the pond and the 911 feet 916 feet level. She also talked about getting taxed again. Gene Goenner - You were talking about Needham Ave. You walked the tile line that they developed over and set trees on. That is what happened. Another thing when the Needham people did that they came to the Town Bd. and asked two or three times, the town board didnt do anything. I feel the people should take care of themselves. Russ Voght - Why are we allowing the developers to change the land contour? So the watershed stayed right where they were. Why are we allowing the builders to redo the contours of the land? In the back of my land the water comes in every Spring. None of us neighbors ever go back there and recountour the land. Why are we allowing them to do that. On Elmer Collettes land, why are we asking them to do that. Floyd has a river going thru his land. We are catering to the builder. He builds the house makes a fast buck and gets out of town. We are sitting here with the problem. I am saying, I bought the land 25 years ago. My map told me where the floodplains were etc. I don't want anyone to tile it or anything else. Wright Co let it happen. Otsego fought it. Pearl Adams,Walesch Estates - Council knows me. I have been there for 20 years. What are they doing on Elmer Collette's Land? They are building a concrete barrier right off of the ditch. Mayor Freske said we will look into it. Pearl Adams - We have been there for 20 years. When it rains hard we have to hurry home to start our pumps. All this problem starts right up where we are. Our draintiles went out because of nature. When they were working it dissipated. We have a lot of water up there. Mayor Freske said we are trying to look over the whole area. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATION OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 9 - Mrs. David Peterson - Some of the problem of water I had in my basement at 14333 87th ST. My husband rented a bobcat and pulled out the culvert. If you put it where it goes thru the Halls Addition the water goes thru the ditches. I worry about my 7 year old. Can you reroute it so it dosen't go in front of my place? Larry Koshak said it is a dangerous situation. We did do something to improve that. We cleaned out the culverts. The City did as much as they could. After 85th Street there is no outlet. That area is one of the areas that is of most concern, besides the 88th and Obrian Area that needs to be addressed. There are two options. We presented it to the property owners at one time. He explained, taking the water and bypass this area, or bring a pipe over and pick it up above the culverts. Mrs. Peterson said every spring we have to bust the ice so it doesn't rush out. Judy Woods - We live where the water comes thru from Luconic's pond and goes across to 88th Street. We don't live in a swamp. When we bought the land we were assured that there was no water problem there. It was only a stream. The city put in a culvert and that took care of the problem for years and years. When Obrian was tarred we talked them into putting in a culvert. It was no problem from last fall. Both culverts couldn't take it. The water is coming from both ways. The Ponds on the other side of Nashua Avenue hasn't reached the level because it is running on us. The water we have is much more than it was, about three times more. Our next door neighbors flooded this spring. There are quite a few houses flooding. Norman F Freske said we've gotten some good information tonight. Andy MacArthur said you have to make a decision, to A. go ahead, with 429 or another district. Dennis McAlpine - asked if we can see a map of the Halls Addition? We are talking about running the water thru Halls Pond. I know the area you are talking about running the water thru, and it was not mandatory to grout the wells with cement. We were grouting the flowing wells with cuttings. Now you have water coming thru the area between the casing and surface where water is coming up thru the cuttings. Now you have to cement it. So in the area you are talking about, we have more water coming up that we don't even see. It is flowing at 30 to 60 gals. per minute. Only when you break the seal can you see it. I could see the water coming up thru the cuttings. Water was coming up thru the casing more then the aquifer. The grouting is not holding the aquifer down and it is saturating the whole area in Halls Addition. A better idea would be to try to take the shortest distance to the river and not mess with the aquifer. CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL INFORMATIONAL MEETING OF AUGUST 16, 1994 Page - 10 - Larry Koshak said Dennis has a point and it is a possibility. We also have septic tank drainfields and you add water to the system there also. 6. Meeting Adjournment: DOUG LINDENFELSER MOTIONED, RON BLACK SECONDED, TO ADJOURN THE INFORMATIONAL MEETING. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY. (A/Lk 'e NORMAN F FRESKE, MAYOR DOUG LII,?bENFELSER, OUNCIL rf FLOYD RCSDEN, COUNCIL LARRY R BLA K, COUNCIL Attest: Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk/Zoning A. ' inistrator City Seal