12-08-04 PH- ITEM - 3.2- -
PUBLIC HEARING
MISSISSIPPI RAVINES STORM WATER IMPROVEMENT
7 PM, DECEMBER 81 2004
OTSEGO CITY HALL
1. Mayor Fournier will open the Public Hearing.
Mayor Fournier opened the Public Hearing at 7:04 PM. Mayor Fournier stated
the reason for this Public Hearing. A decision will be made at the December 27,
2004 City Council Meeting.
Roll Call: Mayor Larry Fournier; Councilmembers: Virginia Wendel, Vern
Heidner and Jerry Struthers. Absent: Dan Scharber.
Staff: Mike Robertson, City Administrator; Judy Hudson, City Clerk; Andrew
MacArthur, City Attorney; Dan Licht, City Planner; Ron Wagner, City Engineer
and Jeff Elliott, Assistant City Engineer.
2. City Attorney comments.
The City Attorney, Andrew MacArthur stated the purpose and legal process for
the proposed Improvement.
3. Project presentation by City Engineer.
Ron Wagner, City Engineer, presented the proposed project as outlined in the
Mississippi Ravines Storm Water Improvement Feasibility Study dated December
2004.
4. Public Comments.
Judy Hudson attested all proper noticing and publishing was done
Mayor Fournier opened for Public Comments at 7:25 PM.
Dan Erickson 10680 97th Street, stated he has lived here for 30 years and the
ravines have always been there. The erosion is on private property, those
property owners should be responsible and this is not a threat to his property.
Tom Bailey, 9721 Kahler Ave. asked what percentage of runoff is coming from
the Golf Course.
Ron Wagner explained the storm ponding, rain events and drain tiles.
CM Heidner asked if there were storm ponds when the golf course was a farm.
Mr. Wagner replied no and that are over three acres of storm ponds on the golf
course, so the runoff rate is less than when it was a farm.
Nick Rude, 9968 Kahler Avenue, stated he lived at this address for three years
and the rain storm last year took many trees in the ravine. If nothing gets done
the erosion will get worst. There is constant water flowing out of the drain tile
even when it is dry and he feels this is coming from the Golf Course. He also
feels that eventually the road will erode away. Mr. Rude said the culverts were
set up to use the ravines, the City widened the road on Kahler and has
increased the flow of water. Mr. Rude feels if the City does nothing now, they
will have do something in 3 to 5 years.
Public Hearing of December 8, 2004. Page 2.
Mr. Ron Wagner explained the source of water could be from ground water.
Mr. Rude stated he is in favor of the project but doesn't feel it is being fairly
assessed.
Bernie Schoefbauer, 9910 Kahler Ave, stated he has lived on the ravine (middle
ravine) for 15 years and in his estimation there hasn't been a lot of difference in
erosion. He feels it should be up to the property owner and is opposed to the
project.
John Stander, 9897 Kaiser Avenue, in favor of the project and asked if the golf
course is being assessed.
Mr. Wagner replied there are different options being presented and some of
them include the Golf Course.
Mr. Stander stated his concern with the assessment. He feels that when the City
did the street improvement they put in deeper ditches which drain into the ravine
and which increased the flow within the eastern ravine. He said he was told
then by the City Engineer that the rate of flow was not increased. He lost 26
trees last year during the storm and feels the City has some responsibility. He
also feels that both golf courses are major contributors. Mr. Stander said he
never heard that type of gushing prior to the golf courses. Mr. Stander said he
heard that the water from the south golf course is being diverted down CSAH 19
but he feels it is not. He pointed out on the map the five culverts under CSAH
39 that he feels are contributing to the water draining into his ravine. He also
said there are other drainage tiles not shown on the map which are draining the
eastern end of Island View Estates into his ravine. He can't understand why the
City Council can repair some systems but not others.
CM Heidner asked Mr. Stander if he wasn't suppose to have done some work on
this ravine.
Mr. Stander said he was required to put $10,000 into an account to use towards
that and the City was to have worked with him. The City's Engineer came in with
a much higher cost.
CM Heidner asked if there was a design by John Oliver. Mr. Stander replied it
wasn't done. Mr. MacArthur explained at that time, Mr. Stander was represented
by an attorney which Mr. MacArthur had corresponded to but never received a
response from in 1998.
CM Heidner said the design by John Oliver was a condition of the Building Permit
for Mr. Stander's Home was suppose to have been done. Mr. MacArthur said
that according to the file, the City was concerned with the build ability of this lot
and conditions were made because of the concerns. There were other potential
buyers who didn't buy this lot because of this.
Bob Thieten, 9889 Kahler Avenue, stated he is not either for or against the
project. He feels he is seeing a greater rate of flow of water in the last 6 years
and asked what is projected.
Public Hearing of December 8, 2004. Page 3.
Mr. Wagner didn't have flow rates when it was farmland. He did go over flow
rates for current uses.
Mr. Thieten assumed the grassy areas on the golf course slow the rate of flow,
and the development south of CSAH 39 should also slow the rate of flow with
their storm water ponds. Mr. Wagner said it would stay the same.
Mr. Thieten noted that the pond by him he is just starting to see some flow and
feel it from the backside of the golf course and maybe not getting directed
properly. He saw several water trucks putting water into the ponds in the golf
course from Veit Construction.
Mr. Wagner replied the water trucks were probably pulling water out of the
ponds for compaction on construction of roads.
Mr. Thieten feels his two acres of land has a slower rate of flow than one acre
lots and he shouldn't be assessed the same. He questioned assessing this
improvement under a 444 and is that based on need for stormwater
improvements.
Mark Palmer, 10540 Kalenda, Lot 17, asked if the City Engineer is aware that the
underground water flow is from the golf course. He feels the rate of flow has
increased and there are fish in the ravine. He feels there are preexisting
conditions. Mr. Palmer stated he is opposed to the project.
Mayor Fournier asked if anyone knows where the entire farm field drain tiles are.
Mr. Wagner replied he does not know where all drain tiles are and would
appreciate getting this information from the residents.
David Haugan, 10275 99th Street, he feels it seems like the drainage would be
coming from CSAH 39 to northeast down Kadler and across that way. Mr.
Wagner went over the map with Mr. Haugen and noted if the water gets high
enough it could go the way Mr. Haugen said.
David Stoddard, 10565 97th Street, stated he has lived here since 1993 and there
is one house between him and the golf course. He has a sump pump and drain
tile around his house and never has seen a drop of water. After the
development of the golf course he has had water in his basement and has had to
pump ever since. He feels the golf course should not be exempt from the
assessment.
Scott Gustafson 9933 Kahler Avenue, lives across the street from the west ravine
and has lived there for one year. He asked when did City decide to do this
project. Mayor Fournier explained that over the past few years the City has
heard from Mr. Stander that he wanted help from the City for a project and the
City directed the City Engineer to do a study. This is the first Public Hearing the
City has held.
Mr. Gustafson feels the storm of last year played a big part in this erosion. He
said Mr. Stander has a beautiful view but that it took guts to build a home that
close to the ravine. He stated he is against this project if the City doesn't help
Public Hearing of December 8, 2004. Page 4.
pay. He doesn't feel the assessment is fair. If it starts eroding his property that
he will pay. He has a drain pond on his property and feels he should be
exempted.
Todd Knudson, 10600 97th Street, stated he is against the project without any
firm numbers and plan.
Stephan Jordan, 10470 Kahler Avenue, stated he isn't sure if he is for or against
the project. He just moved in one week ago, is on the river and has drain tile
around his house. His concern is how much erosion has been in the ravine in
the last few years and is concerned how the properties are going to be assessed.
Paul Medenwaldt, 10525 97th Street, stated he is against the project and the
owner of the affected property should pay for it.
John Prontle, 10560 97th Street, stated he is against the project. He grew up on
a farm and ravines have been a part of history for all time. If he were putting a
high-end home on the ravine he wouldn't expect anyone else to pay for it.
Chris Wollan, 9816 Kalenda Avenue, stated she is against the project.
Arlinda Bauer, 9780 Kalenda, stated she is against the project.
Linda Knudson, 10600 97th Street, stated she is against the project and that if a
person buys property on the ravine they should be responsible.
Judd Kile, 10567 Kalenda Avenue stated they are against the project.
Bonnie Lee, 9880 Kaiser Ave, she stated they have lived there for 17 years.
They live next door to and have the best view of the Standers property and she
feels sorry for them. Mrs. Lee stated the Standers chose to build and the
problem was there before they built. She doesn't feel this is her responsibility
and is against the project.
Marcia Haney, 10597 97th Street, stated she is against the project.
David Steen, 10345 99th Street, stated he has lived there since 1995 and there
has always been a water problem there. Since the golf course was put in it
either disrupted the drain tile as he feels the water level has come up since the
golf course. He lives close to the middle ravine. The culvert was repaired with
the road project. He feels they have an obligation to protect the area. The
assessment needs to be looked at to be fair. Need to look at the underground
water flow. He moved in one year ago. Other cities do matching fund. He
doesn't know how this will improve the benefit by assessment.
Darold Watters, 10527 Kalenda Avenue stated he is against the project as he
feels they are paying for the golf course to be drained.
Jeanette Stoddard, 10565 97th Street, stated she is against the project, as the
golf course and the Standers should do it.
Chris Bulow, 9380 Napier Avenue and owner of the golf course. He has heard a
number of opinions that the golf courses increase the water flow. When he
developed, he had to prove that he had to contain the water flow on site. He
Public Hearing of December 8, 2004. Page S.
had to drain a large portion of the southerly part of the golf course to go through
ponds. If there is more than a 4 -inch rain, it does hit the tiles and runs out of a
12 -inch tile, which has been there for over 50 years. That is the only tile that
runs out of the property and runs into the middle ravine. There is a the coming
from the south that drains the Shelquist property and that has been there for
over 50 years. He has heard about more water in the tile and it is because it's
coming through at a slower rate and runs for a longer period of time. He went
over the tiles with the former landowner and he feels he is maintaining his ponds
correctly. He keeps track of rainfall and there have been six 100 -year events
since he has first mowed grass on the golf course. Irrigation is pumped out of
ponds to irrigate. Chris said he once had trucks pump water out of the storm
ponds and ran the water through the culvert, which went down the ravine. The
Council told him not to do that in the future.
Mark Palmer asked if the tubing into the ravines would go to the bottom. Mr.
Wagner said yes.
Mr. Palmer suggested a retaining wall.
Scott Gustafson, said they have a large drain tube going under the road and
there is a problem with that as the water is going underneath and not catching
the water (west ravine).
Suzanne Crum, 10607 Kalenda Avenue, stated that all this seems to be
stemming from the Standers property and he wants everyone in the
neighborhood to help him when he could have built in a different area. She is
against the project.
Toni Seroschek, 10410 Kahler Avenue, stated they feel the people on the ravine
should pay for this project. They have had erosion and they have dealt with it.
Toni feels the City needs to look at the golf course.
Bill Mulvihilll, 10355 99th Street, asked if that the property owner wasn't asking
for assistance would they all. be here tonight.
Mayor Fournier replied no.
Mr. Mulvihill stated he is against the project.
Don Felber, 10640 97th Street, stated he is against the project as he feels his
water on 97th Street doesn't go to this ravine and some of his neighbor's water
does go there and they are not being assessed. He doesn't feel this is his
problem.
]ane Gustafson, 9933 Kahler Avenue, stated she is against this project.
5. Close the Public Hearing
Hearing no other public comments, Mayor Fournier closed the Public Hearing at
8:50 PM.
6. City Council Discussion.
CM Heidner suggested looking at the water flow from the golf course.
Public Hearing of December 8, 2004. Page 3.
Mayor Fournier thanked everyone and directed the City Clerk put this on the
December 27, 2004 City Council Agenda and invited everyone to attend.
7. Adjourn.
Adjourned at 8:53.
M or Lar urn
ATTEST.
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36Hu . s n, City Clerk