03-12-97 WSSPECIAL JOINT CITY OF
OTSEGO/CITY OF DAYTON
SEWER AND WATER WORKSHOP
MARCH 12, 1997
7 P
1 Mayor Fournier will call the meeting to order.
Mayor Fournier called the meeting to order at 7:09 PM.
Roll Call: From Otsego: Mayor Larry Fournier; Councilmembers: Suzanne Ackerman,
Mark Berning, Vern Heidner and Virginia Wendel; Staff: Kevin Kielb, Assistant City
Engineer, Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Administrator, Judy Hudson, Deputy Clerk.
From Dayton: Mayor Phil Forseth, Councilmembers: Karen Bowen, Anne Ziebell,
Douglas Anderson, Hilmer Hartman, Mark Hanson, City Engineer and Shirley Slater, City
Administrator.
?. Discussion of Sewer and Water issues.
Mayor Fournier started out reporting the SAC and WAC Charges for the Cities of St.
Michael and Albertville are:
St. Michael
Sewer Access Charge $ 3,700.00
Water Access Charge $ 1,300.00
Total $ 5,000.00
Per Lot assessment
Lateral Trunk $10,000.00
Trunk Line Assess $ 1,000.00
Total Per Lot $16,000.00
In Albertville the total assessment was $500.00 less than St. Michael.
CM Heidner thought St. Michael was on 400,000 gpd.
CM Berning questioned what Otsego's charge would be. It was noted about $12,000 per
lot for sewer.
John Simola, Otsego resident and Director of Public Works for the City of Monticello.
He shared that he is currently doing a survey of surrounding communities for SAC and
WAC Charges since Monticello is considering raising their rates. He will share the results
of this survey with Otsego and Dayton upon completion. He noted Monticello's charges
are lower. The whole City of Monticello is served, therefore about 80 to 90% of the plant
is paid through taxes and trying to pay the 10 and 20% through SAC and WAC charges.
He noted they also have NSP there which helps.
CM Berning questioned the engineers that the neighboring sewer plants are existing plants
and this will be a new plant and will it affect the SAC Charge (a higher start up charge).
Mark Hanson replied the SAC charges are to pay for the plant. The area charges are to
build the distribution system. Could take the total cost of the plant, design it for a service
area, take the number of ultimate connections, and it would be so much for each
connection. The first phase could be high because of fewer connections and a decision
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12, 1997, cont'd. Page 2.
would have to be made on how to deal with this - with a ultimate rate which would be
smaller or with the rate that it would take to finance the project. The same issues with
area charges for trunk system which are typically done per acre or connection bases.
Mayor Fournier noted the figures he received for St. Michael and Albertville were for new
construction. He asked Dayton how much capacity they need.
Mayor Forseth replied for the purpose of the study, a service area was outlined for
capacity and hasn't been changed.
Mr. Hanson noted the study called for .77 mgpd ultimately. Dependent upon the ultimate
service area which would be the NW corner of Dayton and is approximately 3,000 acres.
Mr. Hanson also explained how Dayton could have the potential of being served by three
different ways: Elm Creek, Cab or Otsego. There are limitations with the first two.
Mayor Forseth noted the differences between Dayton and Otsego. Dayton is looking for
correction of current problems in the village and the shoreline district. They have a built in
population that would hook up quickly since they have failing systems. Otsego is looking
for development.
CM Wendel asked if there was a possibility of Dayton not entering into commitment with
Otsego.
Mr. Hanson said the opportunity does exist because there are two other options and
maybe use one of those other options on a short term basis.
Mayor Forseth replied his own personal preference would be to go with Otsego for a Joint
System for the long term.
CM Anderson stated he would like to look at the other alternatives Dayton has. He feels
this project might be too expensive without driving some development, but it could also be
the cheapest.
Karen Bowen noted Dayton has a pressing need, but needs more information.
CM Hartman stated he has been watching the problems Dayton has for a long time. He
sees this as an opportunity for Dayton. He stated they don't have the capacity from the
metro system. Dayton has been told there is capacity for them from this system, but they
can never hook up to it and use it. If the joint venture between Otsego and Dayton is
feasible, he would support it.
CM Anne Ziebell would like more information as they go through this process and sees
this as the most cost effect. She is concerned with the assessment costs and wants the
most cost effective option.
Mayor Fournier supports a project with Dayton for the cost effectiveness.
CM Wendel also supports working with Dayton for cost effectiveness and wants a long
term commitment.
CM Berning supports working with Dayton. His concerns are with who is going to run
and operate the plant, future connections for the first few years (100 connections a year)
not sure if Otsego is ready to expand that fast.
CM Heidner's concerns were size of plant, since Frankfort is no longer a part of this,
landowners that do not want to develop. He feels it makes sense for the two cities to
work together and build a facility as it spreads the risk.
Mayor Forseth noted two cities working together have a better advantage getting grants.
}
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12, 1997, cont'd. Page I
CM Ackerman supports working with Dayton, need to keep costs down. Wants to find
out the best way to build the plant.
Phil Forseth talked about Bonestroo re -looking at the report and giving some hard
numbers to work with. As far as the operator, the report talks about a Sewer Board and
feels it is too early to arrive at an answer.
CM Berning said whatever is looked at, what would happen if one municipality really
develops and the other one backs out. Mayor Forseth saw that possibility being very
difficult as this would be a Joint Powers Agreement.
Mayor Fournier agreed and that all these concerns will be addressed through the
agreement. He also discussed this with the City Attorney who agreed the Joint Powers
Agreement would be designed to cover these issues.
CM Heidner referred to the initial size of the plant. Discussion has been on 400,000 gpd.
Otsego has revisited their portion and is more speculative than Dayton. On page 16 of the
report - total wastewater forecast of the different cities. Under Otsego's portion it has
existing of 1.24 mgpd by the year 2006 up to 2.30 mgpd. Realized that we can't count on
that on the first 1.24 mgpd which then drops Otsego down to 100,000 gpd initially in first
phase.
Add Dayton as 1.08 mgpd, add two together and remove Frankfort it comes in at about
one-half of the size. He views this at being a more realistic size for the plant (200,000
gpd)
Mr. Hanson agreed it would be looking at half the size. For Dayton's flow, he doesn't see
the numbers changing, about 1,000 people for the first phase.
CM Heidner was concerned with if the plant was run at half the size it would not be as
cost efficient.
Everyone agreed this needs to be reviewed and worked into the report.
CM Wendel asked if it has been discussed what percentage each city would have.
Mayor Forseth said it goes by use and of course if Dayton would pay based on their
percentage of use.
CM Heidner noted by looking at the numbers it appears that it would be a 50-50% for the
two cities.
CM Wendel asked if the 50-50 split would include the construction, reports, plans.
Mayor Forseth said the study would be split 50-50 and whatever percentage Dayton
would need.
Land acquisition was discussed. Mayor Forseth was concerned with purchasing an
adequate amount for expansion. CM Bowen asked if a plant can be built for a 200,000
gpd. Mr. Hanson replied it can be done, but there will be a point where a million or two
million dollars will be spent based on the flows and still be feasible, but the land will be
expensive.
CM Heidner noted the numbers for the ultimate capacity are probably low. His concern is
within the next five to ten years and can Otsego afford it.
Another concern Mayor Forseth had was that he isn't sure that Pigs Eye will be there for
the outlying areas. They are very extended.
CM Anderson asked about the placement of the plant.
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12, 1997, Page 4.
Mayor Fournier pointed out on the map where Otsego has been discussing. The area is in
the old Frankfort Township area, being close to the Crow River. But open to other sites.
Mayor Forseth said if the plant was located on Dayton's side, the Met Council would own
it and have the final say although they did support Dayton getting sewer from Rogers.
Mr. Hanson noted the Met Council's concern would also be with the transportation
systems.
CM Berning asked, based on assumption if the plant is reduced, will different alternatives
of types of treatment plants be looked at.
Mr. Hanson thought that should be considered, but consideration should be given for
ultimate capacity.
CM Heidner suggested starting out with aeration ponds, than jump up to the full
mechanical plant.
Mayor Fournier asked which type is the easiest to expand on.
Mr. Hanson said it could depend on the land and location and this will be addressed in the
study.
Cm Heidner thought it might to possible to cut costs in half if using aeration ponds to start
out with. Mr. Hanson noted the savings could be applied to land acquisition.
CM Berning talked about amount of land being needed. Page 28, report shows 20 acres
with the buffer and a mechanical plant. He asked if there is any ball park figure for land
prices.
Mayor Fournier didn't have any numbers on this and would need an appraiser and look at
past land sales.
CM Bowen asked if it would be feasible for the Otsego Plant to service all of Dayton.
Mr. Hanson responded if that was anticipated, than a system would have to be built to
accommodate that or understanding that it will be upgraded in the future. Those kinds of
decisions would have to be made. There was future discussion of this with lateral designs
etc.
Mayor Forseth questioned the possibility of a joint water service project. Mayor Fournier
said this could be a possibility and should be discussed since Otsego is looking at a water
project also.
CM Wendel questioned if Otsego goes with an aerated pond, the problem of dealing with
the sludge would also be shared with Dayton. Mayor Forseth said they would handle their
percentage.
CM Berning talked about the main trunk line and asked if Dayton will pick up the costs of
the trunk line running across Otsego to Dayton.
Mr. Hanson said it would probably end up being a force main unless Otsego would want
to build a trunk line out for development. Costs for a force main would be incurred by
Dayton.
CM Wendel asked if it more feasible for grants if there are two cities working together.
Mayor Forseth replied yes and Dayton will also be looking for grants for low income
families (through their County) and this would not involve Otsego.
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12,1997, cont'd. Page 5.
Mayor Fournier opened to the Public for questions.
Wally Odell, Otsego resident, noted through discussion that some costs would be based on
use (sliding scale) would also apply to the original capital investment in the original debt
service. For example, if in the front end Dayton has immediate needs and Otsego's is all
development needs, does it mean that the sliding scale will apply to the debt service in the
initial years or will it be a fixed sharing of the original costs.
Mr. Hanson thought the operation would be more off of usage. If the plant is being sized
for a 50-50 share you would like to think that is the way it will be paid for unless the fiscal
consultants would differ.
Vincent Peterson, Otsego resident, asked how Otsego is planning to be pay for this.
Mayor Fournier and CM Heidner said this would probably be paid for through low interest
loans (3% State Revolving Fund).
John Darkenwald, Otsego resident, if the purpose of this meeting was to discuss changing
the study are the two communities doing anything prior with the people who will be using
the facility to get their thoughts. What are the potential users thoughts and wants paying
for it.
Mayor Fournier explained that once the project is defined and have the real numbers a
Public Information Meeting will be held.
Mayor Forseth reported Dayton has already had one Public Information Meeting. Right
now the cities are just defining the project and that definition is needed for additional
Public Meetings. There are existing situations in Dayton that need correction but are
willing to look at alternatives. This project seems to very cost effect, less than the
Diamond Lake project.
There was further discussion on the shoreline requirements for septics.
(Note: see the attached insert for a verbatim transcript)
John Darkenwald asked if Bonestroo is doing the update and if his 200 plus acres are
included in the study. He wanted clarification is his 200 homes plus the 200 acres are
included.
CM Heidner said in the initial report there were to be 500 homes hooked up and they have
been removed. But the study hasn't been done.
Mayor Fournier said they wanted to leave the Darkenwald's 30,000 gallons of capacity of
their plant to be available to them.
Mr. Darkenwald they have the ability to service 200 plus acres and needs to know if this
amount of acreage is left in the study. He has a permit with modifications to service his
land.
Mayor Fournier said this needs to be outlined and asked for Mr. Darkenwald to prepare a
map outlining his area.
William Jones, Otsego resident, asked if the placement of the treatment plant is where the
new development will go into.
Mayor Fournier replied the major reason for placement there is for discharge to the Crow
River.
I
(The following is to be added to the March 12, 1997 Minutes on Page 5)
John Darkenwald: Larry is Bonestroo doing this next study or someone else.
Mayor Fournier: Yes that is our intention to have them update their original study to fit
what is out there today.
John: So my question is, is our 200 plus acres in the study Bonestroo going to do.
Mayor Fournier: You mean over by your trailer.
John: The 200 acres we own that can be served by the permit we have in our own facility.
Mayor Fournier: We have not included your area.
John: You have not included our 200 plus acres which is an additional 53 acres with 200
homes on it. That is not in the study is that what your saying.
Mayor Fournier: That's correct. That is our intention. I am not sure that is in there.
CM Heidner: That's why I pulled out the .124 mgd. Because that is what we figured in
the area.
Talbot: Can I get mine out of there too.
Heidner: I don't think your in it right now.
John: Just want to clarify this because there was an article in the paper about 200 homes.
200 homes plus 200 plus acres.
Heidner: Initial plan that we have in the report was 500 homes initially hook up in the first
year. Those are essentially out of there.
John: So our 200 plus acres are not in this study.
Heidner: As near as we can tell.
Mayor Fournier: Right.
Heidner: The study hasn't been done yet and we have told them to take it out.
John: Its either going to be in the study or out of the study:
Mayor Forseth: We need to outline the scope of the study.
John: Just want to know if we are going to be in the study because this is a question of
benefit I think.
Mayor Fournier: Ya we wanted to leave your 30,000 gallons of capacity available to you
in your treatment plant.
John: No that is not what I am saying, that's one thing.
Mayor Fournier: Ya, I know.
John: That's 200 homes on 53 acres. We have 200 plus acres with the ability to serve
sewer and water. Is that going to be in the study. I would like to know that.
Mayor Fournier: We will have to get that information for you John.
CM Heidner: Can you service that with your current plant the other 200 some acres.
John: I have a permit to discharge to the Mississippi River with modifications I can serve
my land, yes I can.
Shirley Slater: Do you want to be included in the study or not.
John: No.
Shirley: No.
John: That's why I want them to tell me.
Mayor Fournier: Ya and I did. As far as I know its not in there but we aren't absolutely
sure.
Mayor Forseth: We need to outline the scope of the study.
Elaine Beatty: Mr. Mayor, I think we need to get a map of what he's talking about.
Mayor Fournier: John, John, we need a map from you of the exact area your talking
about. OK, are there any more questions out there.
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12, 1997, cont'd. Page 6.
Jim Talbot, Otsego resident, asked if all the discharge will go to the Crow River, therefore
could create contamination and prevent the river from freezing up.
Kevin Kielb explained the water is treated before discharge.
There was further discussion on discharge.
It was also noted that currently there are a number of homes discharging directing into the
Crow River that is untreated.
Lyle Talbot, Dayton resident, stated he was involved in this awhile back and he has in his
possession some original proposals for Dayton's. Other things involved which indicated
Pigs Eye has plans to take over all the sewage all the way to Monticello and in all
direction. This is something he thinks should confront the Metro System and ask them
what are their plans and how much will it cost and maybe they will come out here.
He was asked by someone to bow out of this and he has in his possession papers that he
will give if someone will sign for them.
Mayor Forseth offered to sign for the papers.
Jim Talbot requested that once the study is done and the Council comes up with hard
numbers to let the citizens know and vote on this.
Mayor Fournier announced that the Council plans on Public Information Meetings.
John Simola advised the Councils that Monticello is on their second wastewater treatment
plant which he had thought he never would have had to built. Some of things they
learned, that if this proposed plant is downsized, make sure the door is big enough for
expansion, pipes are big enough, all front end operations are big enough etc. so that it
doesn't have to be all ripped up and thrown away. In reference to the studies, he supports
having them but have the engineers breakdown all costs so the Council can determine if
they are hard numbers.
CM Berning said if Bonestroo does the study, will they be doing just the treatment study
and not the lateral lines. If Otsego takes out land like the Darkenwald land, who is going
to pick up the additional costs.
CM Heidner noted those would be force main lines and wouldn't be assessed towards that
property but part of the entire project and would be part of the lateral assessment.
Kevin Kielb said he could also be part of the trunk facility charge.
William Jones asked if for the new development would they have the option of hooking up
to the sewer or use on-site septic systems.
Mayor Fournier explained the sewer project would be only for new commercial, new
housing and industrial and any existing area would have to petition for services.
Any new development within the service area would have to hook up to sewer.
John Simola explained that in Monticello when there has been leap frog development, the
City made the developers pay for absolutely everything to get sewer to the development.
Special Workshop Meeting of March 12, 1997, cont'd. Page 7.
MEMO
3I I u
Mayor Fournier declared the meeting adjourned.
M"a"yor Lar
ou 'er
ttest: Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zonin dm.
Recorded by: Judy Hudson, Deputy Clerk