04-15-92 PCCITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 AT 8PM
Chair Swenson called the meeting to order at 8PM.
Members present were as follows:
CARL SWENSON ING ROSKAFT RON BLACK PC/COUNCIL
GENE GOENNER DENNIS MCALPINE KATHY LEWIS
MARK WALLACE JIM KOLLES BRUCE RASK
Staff members present:
Bob Kirmis Elaine Beatty Judy Hudson
Council Members present:
Floyd Roden Larry Fournier
Minutes of 3/25/92 was first on Agenda. Swenson asked
if the Commission wanted to wait until the next meeting for
consideration being the minutes were .just received tonight.
(They will be considered on 5/6/92 PC Agenda).
Wallace motioned to accept the 4/1/92 minutes of the
Planning Commission Meeting. Swenson seconded the motion.
Motion carried unanimously.
3. STEVE SCHARBER - COUNTRY RIDGE PLAT 4.1. Hearing on
Variance for oversized accessory building (4,800 Sq Ft) on
Lot 2. Block 4. Country Ridge Estates. Swenson informed the
public how the Hearing would proceed and asked if the proper
Hearing notices had been published/posted/mailed. Beatty
answered yes. Kirmis then proceeded to explain the Variance
request from NAC's Report of 3/26/92. He noted a Variance
has to show extreme hardship (not financial). He explained
the evaluation criteria from NAC's Report. and read the
three conditions recommended from NAC's Report Pg.S as
follows:
1. The structure is removed by a specific date as
determined by City Officials and stipulated within the
subdivision's development agreement.
2. The disposal of the structure should include removal
of all debris in accordance with solid waste regulations.
3. Following structure removal, the area is graded and
drained.
Swenson asked if Scharber wished to add any information.
He stated no.
Merlin Brisbin had a letter and it was distributed.
Swenson asked if he was recommending that the approval be
delayed? Brisbin read the letter to the Commission. Swenson
said it was pertinent to the next agenda item and asked if it
was OK to set it aside. Brisbin asked when the Council
meeting was on this. Beatty explained that we are
considering the Variance on the Barn now and that Agenda Item
#4.2. Was the Hearing on the EAW. At this point the Hearing
on the. Variance was closed and it was brought back to the
Planning Commission for comments.
Swenson stated this Commission has recently spent a lot
of time on accessory space and this building is 3 times the
allowed space.
Goenner stated he understood it was being looked into as
a possible Historical factor. Swenson said the job of the PC
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 8PM
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is to interpret information and make a recommendation to the
Council. If the Council feels it warrants it they can act on
it. Goenner asked about the combination of Lots 1 & 2 as a
possibility. Kirmis said it was offered as an alternate to
make it a more acceptable situation if you allow the barn to
stay. Wallace said if we approve it we are setting a
precedent for other areas in the City. There are quite a few
factors that would have to be met. Siding needs to match the
house. The other is structure use. If the building is used
for storage it does not fit in that area. There is not a
genuine determination of hardship and it can be a burden for
other residents. Kirmis said based on that he feels we
shouldn't approve the variance even with the extension of the
lot. Rask stated he is against the combination of the lot.
He was opposed to tearing the building down and I thought it
was in the outskirts of the development but it is in the
middle of the development.
Wallace motioned to recommend denial of the Variance
based on the items that he had previously discussed.
(highlighted above)_ Lewis seconded the motion. Motion
carried with Rask and Roskaft opposing.
4.2. Hearing for EAW. Swenson said the purpose of the
Hearing is to get Public Comments. Hearing now open said
Swenson. Kirmis gave the background information as part of
the approval in any development taking 80 acres or more of
Ag land, an EAW must be prepared. They directed the EAW to
the EQB for distribution and publishing. It is not required
by the EQB that a Public Hearing be held, but it is
suggested. We are now holding it. The Hearing is open for
comments from the public said Kirmis. Brisbin said he had no
further comments. Anyone else which to be heard asked
Swenson? Rask asked Brisbin if he would have a response by
next Monday? Swenson said any further comments need to be
sent to the EQB. Roskaft asked if there is going to be an
Environmental Impact Statement? Kirmis said this is to
determine if there is going to be a problem. If they
determine there is going to be a problem, then they will do
an impact statement. Kirmis said he didn't anticipate that
one will be required, but he didn't know. Black asked for
clarification. Does the EQB mandate or recommend an
Environmental Impact Statement? Answer= This has been
submitted to the EQB. There is a 30 day comment period. Any
comments made tonight will be submitted to the Board and any
other comments can be made directly submitted.
Wallace asked if the issue of drainage would be brought
up at this time? No, said Swenson. If there are no other
questions we will close the Hearing and the information will
be sent to the EQB.
4. RUDY THIBODEAU-MINN-E-GOLF - Lots 3 and 4. Block 1,
Mississippi Shores 6TH Add at Park Ave NE ,,and Parrish Ave NE
Hearing for the Following:
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 AT 8PM
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4.1. Variance for rear yard setback to be 10' from property
line (Ord reads 20' from line).
4.2. Lot Combination of Lots 3 & 4, Block 1, Mississippi
Shores 6TH add. ( Sec 21-6-2) .
4.3. PUD - Because of second principal building site
4.4. CUP - For a new building
Kirmis gave the public information from April 10, 1992
NRC's Report and read a summary of what is needed 1-5 Pg 1 of
report. Based on review of final recommendation 1-5 Pg 2 & 3
NAC's Report.
4.a - Applicant feels parking should be far and above
what is needed (Deferment can be requested)
4.c. -That provision would allow Mr Thibodeau to install
a couple more parking stalls.
4.f. - Feel proposed use will generate a lot of kids and
should be accommodated for.
4.g. - Particular for the restaurant
4.k. - To provide assurance.
5. Two items to consider is a hardship has to be
demonstrated. While Kirmis felt the hardship has not been
demonstrated, the liquor store has a similar setback approved
by the County in the past. It is a policy item.
Rudy Thibodeau spoke:
The proposal we are putting together, we consider is a
significant investment in the community. We started this
last year. Our original plan was to come in with a steel
building. It was determined it would not be allowed. We
have worked to comply with that. The structure is defined.
I could put a business plan together and sell it to a bank. I
do have comments and feelings on many of the issues. I would
like to address each item as they are listed in order. Mr
Weight is our contractor. (.john Weight).
114 stalls are in the report. The reason we are looking
at 98 stalls is they call for 1-1/2 stalls for each hole in
the Minn -E -Golf. We have 36 holes and 36 parking spaces. We
have never overflowed our parking space. We can't say it
will happen. Thibodeau said they run a tournament with Tom
Thumb every year. 72 golfers come when that takes place he
calls Elaine and says they may overflow on parking. Last
year we had a major race and Tom Thumb classic. Tom Thumb
provided parking. We never hit the street. I would also say
that many of you have been to my place. We have been there
four years. I don't think anyone has come to my place and
not had a place to park. There will be 18 holes of golf in
the new facility said Thibodeau. There will be off -setting
seasons. It will be mostly outdoor in the summer and indoor
in the fall/winter and spring. Weight said the parking lot
has a entrance in one end and exit on another. They have no
problem with the continuous sidewalk. People often walk thru
a parking lot to qet to a place. The bicycle racks we can
Plan on moving them o,.:er and Put next to new building and
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Thibodeau said he has no problem putting in another rack if
needed. Weight said that on the signs he wrote on the site
plan where they will be located. Sign 4X40' back lighting
sign is the intent with letters on the side of the building
are drawn to scale. He is looking at heavy traffic
conditions, that area it will be well signed. No need for
free standing signs they feel. Don't investigate if it meets
the sign ordinance (get sign ordinance to Rudy Thibodeau).
Discussion of drainage is being done with the two Engineers.
Exterior lighting is light fixtures. Parking, if for other
uses, there would be plenty of space to lay out truck parking
space to facilitate it. A dumpster will be screened behind
the building and be rolled out when garbage truck is there.
(This can be scheduled in a non -heavy business time.
Swenson asked for any more comments. Thibodeau reserved
his right to speak as the Hearing progresses.
Mike Brown - Lives across from Minn--E-Golf now. He has
been there for four years and has not had any trouble. He
sees it as a good thing for the community. He wasn't too
happy when the liquor store came in. This is a positive
thing_ My kids ages 20 & 12 both enjoy it. It is positive.
Mike Christenson - I live across the street and have no
problem with it. How late is it open? I have young
children. Cars have been screeming by. Mike Brown said that
99% of the cars are from the school (alternative learning
center). Thibodeau said the planned use is 7 days a week all
year. The week end is the longest hours. lOAM-lOPM
Sun/Mon/Tues/Wed/Thurs. Fri/Sat it is open until midnight.
The noise in the building will be contained. Any noise is
cheering for the hole in one. The outdoor course is open
every night until IOPM - Fri/Sat to 11:OOPM. Black asked if
Thibodeau could give a brief outline for the people. He
showed the site plan and explained the layout and parking.
60 some odd spaces for the new building. 30 some at the
original golf course. Overflow in new lot in Winter can use
the second lot. The building is a decorative block
structure with very few windows. Painted and decorated with
colored stripe. Inside first floor batting cages. Stairwell
and handicap accessible to get upstairs. 20' canopy in the
front entrance. Restaurant area/pizza/pasta/Italian
sandwich/ existing structure is listed as a restaurant with
the State now. Indoor 18 hole golf/hobby and craft store/
craft items available/mixture to accommodate all ages and
sexes. The second floor the intent is 40'x120' carpeted race
track (largest in the State). Three slot car tracks (1
dragster) 55' a small 8• -lane 55' of track for birthday
parties/180'track (more professional) for competition type
racing/in between there are work benches for working on the
cars between racing. Four to Six cars at a time and 36
people maximun in a four hour block. Two
c:�nf<�rence;`communit, rooms open to s:�irl
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 AT 8PM
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scout3/brownies/4H/whatever/marketing ploy/craft classes
offered/restrooms and office. Also game room with video,
etc. Pitching/fastball or softball and restrooms to
accommodate all that.
Swenson asked for any other questions or comments?
The Hearing was closed and brought back to the planning
Commission.
Roskaft would like to clarify one thing. On April 1S,
1992 the Council approved the Zoning and Subdivision
Ordinances Sec 504. Kirmis said the application was taken
under the old ordinance so would be reviewed under the old
ordinance. Roskaft asked if Sec 20-3-3 in the new ordinance
relatively the same as old? Kirmis said there is a reference
to the subdivision ord which the City has adopted.
McAlpine had a concern of all the children at 12PM. He
asked if anyone had been at the Elk River theater on Fri
night? He would like to see parents be there. Thibodeau
said they are looking at 700 hours of manpower of people to
man the facility. He explained it brings recreation for the
children. The RC and Slots, many people are in their SO's
and 60's. Supervision is there. There is nothing I would
like more than the parents to be there. They have a $300 to
$400 investment in cars so they tend not to fool around
because of the big investment. The first floor batting cages
will draw teens. The video games are time passers while they
are waiting.
Margaret Thibodeau said now with the outdoor course,
usually Fri and Sat nights a lot of teenagers and adults come
in after the movie. We don't allow people to hang around.
We are strict with goofing off.
Goenner said as he sees it there would be less intense
activity. (See File #PC -41792)
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 8PM
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The summer activity is 2 -- 18 hole courses and would remain
the same. It has been growing about loo per year. The
indoor people coming for batting cages and races year round.
Weather is a big factor. Goenner said he was trying to
maintain if more intense business. Thibodeau felt the
outdoor noise would be no more intense. The building is to
be air conditioned. The drainage has not been settled as
Engr Larry Koshak is in Hawaii.
The proposed downsizing of the building, Thibodeau felt
it is offensive. Downsizing would not allow the track to
meet regulations.
Rask asked about the minimum parking in front. Kirmis
said the proposal fails to meet requirements for the parking
for the ordinance because of that you have to downsize the
building. In the PUD in Riverwood they didn't have to put in
parking now. It is planning for the worse. Swenson spoke
about the setback. The County requires 30', our new ord.
calls for 20', 10' variance is being asked for.
Rask stated that he would be in favor of the variance to
set it back 10 ' .
Wallace said it is possible that additional parking
could be provided for the rear.
Thibodeau said he wants safety for his employees and
customers in a well lit area. From a safety standpoint,
being in front of the building would be more important.
Swenson said five items require comments from the
Engineer.
Weight said they have the two Engineers talking and
working out the fine details and suggests any action made be
contingent upon approval of the Engineer. Our Engineer feels
it is a workable situation.
Tom Thumb is also 10' from the lot line said Thibodeau.
The concern is they were done under the County's
jurisdiction. Our new Ordinance does not allow it.
Roskaft said he can't see why we can't grant a variance
for 10'.
Kirmis said it is the first City decision. Because this
locality already has that variance provided can we not allow
it in other areas? Roskaft said the Town Board approved it
and I feel because they did that I see no reason why we don't
allow it.
Goenner said he feels they have demonstrated there is an
economic factor here. Kirmis said you don't want to base it
on economics.
Wallace said the variance can be granted on a particular
time and date but at another time, because of particular
area, there wouldn't be anything wrong not granting that
variance. In another district there wouldn't be a need. It
is putting everything in compliance with what is there.
Lewis said there would still be the issue of the
defactor parking spaces. Has the applicant exhausted all
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 AT 8PM-
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areas in this?
Thibodeau said that putting the parking behind the
building is possible. I believe it provides an additional
risk and presents a safety hazard. That is my hardship. We
show 98 spaces. I have talked about eliminating the exit
drive with Tom Thumb and that would get me 106 to 108 parking
spaces.
Swenson said if we give the reasons of existing and as a
contingencies:
1. Engineer has suitable drainage agreement.
2. Parking acceptable
Wallace motioned to grant the variance of the setback of
10' based on the fact that the existing buildings in the B-2
(Mississippi Shores 6TH Add) are also 10' rear line setback.
Roskaft seconded the motion_
Black said it would be a good idea to deal with the
drainage and parking with the PUD not with the variance.
Motion carried unanimously.
Kirmis said the Minn -E -Golf parking is not provided in
the existing ordinance it can be determined by the
governmental body and the PC.
Thibodeau said he can put eight more spaces in. Kirmis
said they show four handicap stalls and the law only requires
one per SO so whey can work with it.
Swenson said as long as it is agreeable we are willing
to go along with it. Weight said the staff made a
recommendation and it is up to you to vary.
Black isn't it possible to set the total number of
spaces now, but as a condition, if parking ends up on the
street the review of the PUD, more spaces will be provided if
needed. Is seems creative parking can be done. The
contingency can be built in.
Rask motioned to accept the PUD be applied to the
Thibodeau property and all the drainage and parking
(demonstrating 7 to 9 spaces extra would be acceptable) and
issues be worked out in the PUD. Roskaft seconded the
motion_
Black said a clarification, they are recommending NRC's
Report with the exception of 4A __ Parking of 114 be changed
to 98 spaces.
Motion carried unanimously.
Roskaft motioned to grant a CUP for the new building
with reference to Files 176.02 and 92.03 in NAC's Report
dated April 10, 1992. Goenner seconded the motion. Motion
carried unanimously.
By --Laws
Beatty brought up some concerns of Dave Licht that the by-
laws under Work Rules- Item 2. should be Feb instead of
Tan. to allow more time. Item 3. should include the
Alternate.
After discussion it was decided to change the following'
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES OF 4/15/92 AT 8PM
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Item 2: Change January to "February".
Item 3= Take the wording from the P.C. Ordinance
Item #16= Park to "Planning"
Wallace will make changes and vote on next PC meeting.
Roskaft motioned to adjourn. Wallace 2nd. Motion
carried unanimously
Mr Thibodeau thanked everyone.
JAI
R KOLLE SECR TARY
MINUTES BY ELAINE BEATTY, RECORDING SECRETARY
;,
MERLIN BRISBIN
8182 NE RIVER RD
ELK RIVER, MN 55330
APRIL 15, 1992
TO THE OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION:
I AM STILL REVIEWING THE ENVIRONMENTAL ASSESSMENT
WORSHEET FOR THE PROPOSED COUNTRY RIDGE PLAT.
SECTION 22, TOWNSHIP 121, RANGE 23, NW 1/4 & SW 1/4
IN SEC 22, TWP 121 R23, WRIGHT CO.
I AM SEEKING LEGAL ADVISE ON THE MATTER OF THIS
DEVELOPMENT AND ARE AWARE OF THE 30 DAY RESPONSE
TIME. THE EAW WAS SIGNED AND DATED MARCH 20, 1992.
SINCERLY,
MERLIN BRISBIN