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12-07-94 PCPC-9393.WPS CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES, IN THE CITY OF OTSEGO, COUNTY OF WRIGHT, STATE OF MINNESOTA REGULAR PLANNING COMMISSION WITH COUNCIL ATTENDING DECEMBER 7, 1994 - 8PM 1. CHAIR CARL SWENSON WILL CALL THE MEETING TO ORDER.- Chair RD .R:Chair Carl Swenson called the meeting to order at 8PM. ROLL. CALL: CARL SWENSON DENNIS MC ALPINE ING ROSKAFT RON BLACK/CR GENE GOENNER ARLEEN NAGEL/ALT JIM KOLLES - ARRIVED SHORTLY AFTER MEETING OPENED. BRUCE RASK AND MARK WALLACE, WERE UNABLE TO ATTEND Staff present was Bob Kirmis, Assistant Planner and Elaine Beatty, Deputy Clerk/Zoning Administrator. Mayor, Norman F Freske, Council members, Floyd Roden and Larry Fournier, and new Council members, Vern Heidner and Suzanne Ackerman were also present. 2. CONSIDERATION OF P. C. MINUTES OF 11/16/94: CONTINUE TO 12/21/94 P. C. AGENDA 3.JOINT P.C./COUNCIL MEETING R THF IMMEDIATE URBAN SERVICE AREA LINE.HAN t .. DISCUSSION OF POSSIBILITIES OF LINE CHANGE AND DEVELOPMENT: Carl Swenson welcomed the Council. He asked Mayor Freske to explain the reason for this meeting. Mayor Freske explained that because of water problems, and development being asked for,etc, they decided to look at the Immediate Urban Service Area Line change and discuss it with the P.C. Bob Kirmis, Assistant Planner highlighted items in the November 23rd Memo from NAC. We are here in response to Mr Bulow and Mr LuConics desire to develop. He said Staff would have to recommend denial now because of the Immediate Urban Service Area. The basis of the Immediate Urban Service Area boundary is a reiteration of a line that was incorporated as part of the City's sewer plan. Elk River is no longer interested in supplying sewer to Otsego. That invalidates a large part of the Immediate Urban Service Area. He talked about the amount of developable land. Judy Hudson had made contact with property owners. Half of the 5 year supply is available. (2-1/2 years) In consideration of this, we asked the P.C. and Council to make a specific policy. Does the City wish to change the line before the sewer plan is done. If so, what conditions would be allowed, where, how much, etc. NAC considered the expansion a policy matter and believes they should wait until a sewer plan or policy is made. Larry Koshak, City Engineer was present. Chair Swenson asked if there are any questions from the P.C. or Council. Larry Fournier asked the City Engineer to update the P.C. on the stormwater project. Larry Koshak said the Storm Water Management Plan will be presented to the Council on January 12, 1994. They will receive a draft at that time and will be asked to set a hearing date. CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF DECEMBER 7, 1994 AT8PM- PAGE 2 - Carl Swenson asked the extent of the plan. Larry Koshak said they will have topography of the Immediate Urban Service Area and look at the needs of the stormwater districts. Halls and the LeFebvres are the prime areas. They have looked at problems, estimated costs and established policy as how to fund. One policy is that all developments will be charged a fee to develop. That fee will go to storm water management. There will be a definite strategy plan. We cannot wait until development occurs to correct these problems. The City Council will develop a Utility Fee so there can be some funds generated for these projects. A Sanitary Sewer Plan was developed with the concept of going to Elk River. The best place would be Co.42 and Hwy 101 intersection area. It was originally planned for 85th St.and Co.42. City would flow from West to East for sewer and storm sewer. The Western areas would be the last served by a sewer system. Water service is not such a problem. We do have a well at the New School Site. Chair Swenson asked if anyone had any more questions of Larry Koshak? Mayor Freske said part of the line change is discussing the storm water. If we would change the line, the big key would be helping the water problem. It could spread the cost out. Howard Triggs commended the City for incorporating. His concern is sewer and water. First and second home buyers are in the new developments, and an assessment would wipe a lot of them out. You may want to collect the amount for the roads from the developer. You can invest that money and pave after sewer and water comes in. Mayor Freske said in the last developments houses had to be placed one side or the other, allowing for a future split. We have the overlay thats showing future lot splits. We are looking at sewer along Hwy 101, it is mainly for Commercial/Industrial and new developments. Vern Heidner said there are over 400 acres of houses on large lots. Some have 5 or 6 acres of land that they can not put more houses on. Larry Koshak added that the Council has mentioned a number of times in the past, that planning for sewer and water are for commercial interests along Hwy 101. Sewer for the present subdivided lots would be premature at this time, possibly occuring in 15 or 20 years or when there is demonstrated need for sewer. We are talking about how to ultimately plan the community and whether extension of the line to the West is a prudent thing to do. The cost of installing water and sewer under the present situations would be extremely expensive and could not meet the benefit criteria. It is not financially feasible. Ron Black said he observed dialog with the P.C. He acknowledged the timeliness of this discussion. 1. To his knowledge the only plat that has come into the City of Otsego revolving around the present plan is "Oday Acres". There has been no other infill. 2. He felt the concept of the sewer coming from the NE, it would now be coming from the SW. He questioned the underlying validity of the plan. 3. NAC's Report on land availability, he questions whether the scenario of land availability is legitimate. He wanted to know what has changed in four years? There has been very little infilling. The timetable that Mn/DOT controls is a significant factor. Dennis McAlpine said regarding the 90th Street and Odean Avenue water problems last spring, to this day we have not done anything with that water problem. CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF DECEMBER 7,1994 AT 8PM - PAGE 3 - Ron Black said yes we have. We paid $40,000.00 for a set of maps. That is not a P.C. problem. We can't shift that problem to the West. There was more discussion of Mrs LuConics land and resolving the drainage problem to the East of them. Chair Swenson asked Larry Koshak if LuConics land is in the same watershed. Larry Koshak said one of the solutions would be to transfer the water to the Otsego Creek, from the Halls Watershed. It is not the natural flow of the water. Approval by the DNR would be needed. The Halls Pond is too small to take the burden of the runoff. We can't send anymore water down, without additional ponding. The problem is paying for those kind of improvements. Arleen Nagel questioned Larry if the Halls Pond is not equipped to handle the runoff. Wasn't it eguipped to handle 100 yr flood, why is it too small now? Larry Koshak explained there is not sufficient ponding in those areas. We can't pipe to those areas, without increasing the Halls Pond. Norm Freske asked Larry if the DNR would have a problem with the project? Larry Koshak felt the DNR would support it. The location where we dumped into Otsego Creek, the drop is quite a bit there. Assessing Stormwater improvements to undeveloped land is very difficult. You have to show benefit. If these areas are developed there would be more ponding, not more piping. We will be looking for an area for ponding in the Halls area. The Odean Ave.and 85th St. property is currently in a RIM program and will be until 2008. Ing Roskaft asked if there's an increase in ponding areas, don't you increase the water table? Larry Koshak said not necessarily. You would not want to increase it so as to cause problems with existing homes. You would have to have controlled outlets. Holding retention areas in a series would be done. Ing Roskaft said in other words, the Halls Drainage system piping should be larger. Larry Koshak said they could not take the Halls Pond below a certain area, you have to manage the flow. We have problems with the water table in the Halls Pond. Mike LuConic said this discussion seems to be a bit premature until we get the information back from Larry Koshak's office. Regarding NAC's Memo, concerning inventory of land available, Mike questioned the number of residential building permits issued in 1993. 112 permits were issued. In answer to his question, Elaine Beatty told him they are in the Immediate Urban Service Area Line. Mike talked about the Otsego Prairie Park and having construction by the new park. From an access point of view, I feel it would be reasonable to allow residential construction near that park. 2-1/2 A lots are expensive to deal with, roads are unaffordable. The larger lots make it more expensive. You get more large building with larger out buildings. Those lots will become more difficult to further subdivide if water and sewer were available. Bob Kirmis said in regard to land availability study, you can take that however you want. We felt it was wise to investigate that. In regard to the development that had occurred since the plan was adopted, there was Country Ridge. CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF DECEMBER 7, 1994 AT8PM- PAGE 4 - Ron said Country Ridge was here, but Bob explained that it was not incorporated into the plan because it didn't have final approval. Bob agreed that 2-1/2 acre is not a valid lot. In the Metro, if outside of the sewer area, you have to have 10 acres. Mayor Freske asked regarding LuConics and Bulows property(Anderson's) would it be feasible to put in a cluster system? Larry Koshak said that is one of the ways to go, and cluster the homes with a common system. He suggested the City take over the community drainfield as part of their Municipal Operation and assure that the facility remains viable. It has been done in other communities. It would take care of the large significant wetland pond on the property. It would warrant it to be addressed as a PUD. Another issue is we have three monitoring wells now in place in the community. One on 85TH, Antelope Park, and at the Co. Park. We will be recommending to the Council. A firm needs to take readings at the wells for water quality. It is at the first aquifer that the homes would receive their well water. Based on that, the Staff can make a recommendation to the Council. Mike LuConic - If we get a plan that works well for development, we will have one means of funding that solution. I am not looking to create any problems. The City does have an opportunity to solve a problem. The City and I will benefit, as will the residents. Mr Trigg said he would like to see the line be moved all the way to Mason Avenue. He had to go to the bank and they wanted to know the absorption rate. It is over 55 homes a year. If you allow your line to move so much in a year, the residents will know how fast it is moving. You can control that. If you keep your line as is development will be almost nothing. Larry Fournier said there are many issues here that have to be solved before we move the line. He asked Bob Kirmis if it would be OK to look at developments that were very beneficial to the City. Bob Kirmis recommended we should set up things so we are responsible and able to provide services in a comprehensive manner. We could make a resolution to do the LuConics property. The investor for the Mason Ave. area, said he would not invest the way it stands now. The City has to decide if they are going to allow growth or not. Larry Koshak said from the City's prospective, we do not want to create more problems. Chris Bulow talked about John Andersons property on Nashua Avenue and Co.39. The property is already platted. The existing plat is a viable plat. It meets or exceeds all of Otsego's pre-existing lot requirements. He does not want to replat it. He asked if he records a deed, will he be able to get a building permit? Bob Kirmis said the City Attorney has determined Mr Bulow would be able to build. Mr Bulow talked about an attractive development with proper accesses and drainage. He is wondering if the City Council or P. C. has any problems with them moving ahead with the development. To the West of Nashua Avenue there is one 10 Acre parcel, that the City has expressed an interest in. He is hoping to work with the City for that property for Park and Rec. use. Bob said Mr LaConic is requesting their property be brought into the Immediate Service Area. Mr Gene Goenner said he liked Mr Fourniers idea of looking at them individually. Most likely our sewer would head towards Co.42. We are talking with Dayton and Frankfort already. CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF DECEMBER 7, 1994 AT 8PM - PAGE 5 - I would be willing to move the line further along the Hwy 101 corridor. 470 acres are availible now for development and 114 acres that would consider it. It comes to quite a bit of land that is available and mainly along the Immediate Service Area. Ron Black questioned concentrating on residential development or should we be directing our attention to other development. Is it fair to say that residential development compounds the problem? Ing felt we should concentrate on commercial development, as soon as the watershed is straightened out. If sewer and water is needed in the presently developed area, it would be easier to extend it West than South. If he was forced to vote, he would tend to vote to extend it to the West, South of Co.39. Dennis McAlpine agreed with Ron Black and thought Vern Heidner had a good point. We have a lot of room for development. Lets use up the land we have and not be jumping around, but we should go East and South. Mike LuConic said you are speaking of water and sewer for Commercial/Industrial use. It is probably not going to take place (for residential) for the next 15 years. He would like to put the sewage plan on hold when discussing residential use. We are concerned with stormwater runoff. LuConics land could be a valuable key in solving that problem. Carl Swenson asked if anyone had any specific questions? Mr Bulow asked if there would be opposition to having a development up there? Carl Swenson said he was not comfortable answering that. Chris explained further the minimum requirement and what his lots would be. Bob Kirmis established Staffs position. This was platted in the original Townsite. It was platted prior to the current standards. It is not consistent to what we would like to see in the area. The problem is the legal lot of record. We would like to see it replatted someday. We have some concern that construction of homes along Nashua Avenue is not consistent with what the City would like to see in that area. Mr Bulow does hold the legal development rights on that lot. Carl Swenson said he didn't feel an answer could be given until Mr Bulow comes in with a specific proposal. Mr Bulow said he has been to two concept meetings and three City Council Meetings and got shut down all those times. Bob Kirmis said with the lots on the improved street, you have legal development rights. No special approval is needed. Bob Kirmis said Mr. Bulow would not be able to pull any building permits on interior lots. Ron Black said there are significant survey issues on that entire plat. Mr Bulow said all the streets will be vacated except for 6TH Street. The City has to take action to vacate those streets. CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF DECEMBER 7, 1994 AT 8PM - PAGE 6 - Mr Bulow said he came in with another plan which was not accepted. It would give three accesses instead of seven. I wanted to do it the right way but feel I am forced to do it this way. Carl Swenson closed this portion of the meeting. He said this has been helpful and we need to continue this sort of dialog. Carl Swenson asked if in the absence of Mark Wallace and Bruce Rask, would Larry Fournier give us an update on the 3rd Industrial Site Committee. Larry Fournier said they have had two meetings. Our goal was to define an area, not a site. Tomorrow night we have a meeting and I am asking you to attend. (Carl Swenson) C" A- , - _ EUGI'�NE GOENNER, SECRETARY MINUTES BY: ELAINE BEATTY, RECORDING SECRETARY