06-09-98 IMCITY OF OTSEGO P.C./COUNCIL INFORMATIONAL
MEETING RE: COMP. PLAN
MINUTES
JUNE 9, 1998 - 8PM
THIRD INFORMATIONAL MEETING ON THE RURAL AGRICULTURAL
PRESERVE AREA:
Mayor Fournier called the meeting to order at 8:OOPM. He gave introductions
Roll Call:
Mayor Larry Fournier, Council Members Heidner, Wendel, Berning and Ackerman were
present; Planning Commissioners Nichols, Nagel, Kolles, and Goenner were also present;
David Licht, Planner, Dan Licht, Assistant City Planner, John Harwood, City Engineer,
Mike Robertson, City Administrator and Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Administrator
were present from Staff.
Administrator Robertson gave a brief overview and explanation of why we are here. He
explained no decisions have been made in this area. The Council put it off to hear the
residents input. Council will weigh comments of individual owners and developers and try
to put into effect the best overall plan for the City.
Dan Licht, Assistant Planner gave an overview of the Comprehensive Plan Draft, with the
process of the update of the plan. He explained the concept plan and the map with the
different areas. He showed the transportation system and park plan and explained briefly.
The Meeting then broke up into small group areas where residents/land
owners/Developers, etc. could ask their questions of Council/PC/Staff for one half hour.
The Meeting was called back to order by Mayor Fournier. It was turned over to Mike
Robertson, who answered questions from the audience.
Question: a farmer asked on the existing policies for farm Ag Preserve, how big can we
go?
Answer: Double the current number of animals.
Question: Russ Greninger - He desires to expand existing feedlot - Ag Preserve Area
should be exempt from water and sewer extensions.
Answer: The intent is that all sewer be paid for by new development.
Question: Mrs. Russ Greninger - My family is being threatened by cars and traffic when
we are on the tractor. You do not want to let them farm. I have 98 Acres. I Don't want
to farm. What do I do? The renter does not want to farm. I want options. I have a
development proposal.
They want to develop and put in a package plant - It will be 25 years until sewer is in this
area.
Question: Roy Frenshuh - Opposed to Ag Preserve. My dad farmed many years. You
are tying up the market for 40 years. Also resident from the same family said the big
problem is dollars. 101/94 & 19 area good industry Development areas.
- Page 2 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Answer: The reason for sewer is encourage Ind/Comm. growth. Currently
Industrial development is allowed along parts of I-94.
Question: Last year the race track, nobody cared about farmers then. Why is that?
Answer: No application was ever received for the race track. The City did not turn
down the race track.
Question: One per 40 and septic in Ag Preserve if developer wants a package plant, it's
iffy. Residential preserve 10 per 40 or 4 per 40 - What do they do?. Want cluster
considered for Ag Preserve area.
Answer: Cluster concept is new for MN. Lake Elmo cluster development was
explained. The rural Preserve is a small area with rolling hills and the river, which
we think will attract that kind of housing.
Resident - New to the area. Can't Ag Preserve be planned out ahead, so people can know
where to develop in the future?
Answer: We are now planning now for the Ag Preserve area..
Resident - Makes sense to me.
Answer: It takes quite a long while to get sewer to the Ag. Preserve Area. We are
starting very small here and intend to expand sewer system over the years.
Resident - What is the projected growth rate over next 10 yrs?
Answer: Part of Comp. Plan 6,500 now & projected 8,000 in 10 years (1,500
added). Some of the crowd felt the figures were low.
The cluster system, you say it's new. A few miles S. in Frankfort Twp, Hance Hagen put
in clusters, then wanted sewer. If you put in clusters, within a couple of years - you will
run sewer.
Answer: Explanation of the open space requirement of cluster development.
That's different from Hans Hagen Development.
Question: 101 corridor you need applications from Developer, do you have that in
writing?
Answer: We have been contacted by several developers, there have been concept
plans presented, but we have not received applications. They are waiting for water
and sewer.
Question: If one showed up on 19 & 94 what would you do?
Answer: An Office/Warehouse building was just approved for 94 In Otsego
Industrial Park.
Question: Will we have two sewer systems someday?
Answer: Someday, Albertville sewer may be extended North and be able to be
tapped into.
Question: Clustering, which is it, 4 per 40 or 10 to 40?
Answer: 10 per 40 if clustered, 4 per 40 if not clustered. Explanation of Lake Elmo
Clustering Ordinance and how it worked - 50% of the buildable area is permanent
open space.
Question: What happens with the permanent open space?
Answer: We will try to find out what they do in Lake Elmo. We are considering
several approaches, we are open to ideas.
- Page 3 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Question: We ended up here with open rural area. What would we look at? We don't
want to look at a sea of roofs. I am not opposed of 4 per 40 or 10 per 40 adjacent to 1
acre lot development. Greninger - 40 Acres of flat land could we build 10 - 2 Acres lots?
Answer: Yes
Question: A moratorium is on -how can anybody build? No new houses in the last five
years. Re: Land use, no new feed lots are allowed, who makes a financial commitment if
we don't know five years down the road what would happen? We want a clear sign of
where we are going, either Ag or Residential.
Answer: Any policy one Council passes a future Council can overturn it.
More discussion on development and a five year plan/expansion for new feedlots. If you
have a feedlot, can you double your feedlot?
Answer: You need a building if you expand. Let us know your preference. If Ag
Preserve remains, we need the feedlot ordinance changed to allow people to expand.
Question: Mike Ziegler - Ziegler Construction. Land owner - concern with 1 per 40 Ag
Preserve. Seems you can go 1 to 2 acre lot density in the entire Ag Preserve. Then they
could subdivide. Have a mixture of farms and homes. It all works well. Let land owners
decide what to do. Around City Hall there is a nice park. Has no neighbors to enjoy it.
Bring some 2-1/2 acre lots around the park and City Hall or 1 per 10.
Question: Floyd Goenner - We just went through a court case - They wanted residential
development and didn't want feedlots.
Question: 10 years ago most people wanted to keep Ag. - Consensus is changing. I
prefer to keep it open as it is. Before that people were against development.
In October 1995 the Council made that choice and sent a message no farmers - pack them
in tight.
Question: I support keeping it as is. The land is not worthless in a big parcel. Not
everyone need rights to sell acres. One per forty is OK.
Question: Don Greninger - I hear on our end it should stay Ag. We had two developers
come in who wanted to develop. The City said No. I want to develop. Feedlot
Ordinance was made by people who never saw a cow.
Question: Doug Lindenfelser - Land values and restrictions on expansion of feed lots are
getting rid of Ag Zoning. You are looking at the last generation of farming. Have to
work on density for development.
Question: Expand on your cluster idea 10 per 40 with septic, well and green space. Why
cluster common sewer? Who would take care of open 20 acres?
Answer: We are debating that. We don't know for sure. Deed restriction or
covenant put on it possibly.
- Page 4 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Question: Floyd Goenner - Who would want to farm it? Bedroom parcels and 1/2 want
to develop/ 1/2 want to leave as is. How will you decide? I can't guess.
Answer: Its the toughest question in the Comp. Plan. We want written comments
from all of you.
Question: Expand on that 50% saying development. Very people say leave it as is.
Answer: There seem to be three visions for this area; 1).Sell Farms - develop
2). Expand feedlots 3). Keep it as is with no major farm expansions and little
additional development.
Question: I like it as is. I don't farm. Consensus is if you allow farming, you have to do
something. There is a cross-section of Otsego here, lets see a show of hands.
Answer: Asked for show of hands on the following:
1. Sell farms - Lots of hands (Over 1/2 of people)
2. Expand Feedlots - a few people (Well under 1/2 of people)
3. Leave as is - (minority - Well under 1/4 of people)
Question: I moved there, I didn't want a lot of houses. Bigger than an acre lots is what I
want to see.
Question: Tony Berning - With the show of hands you have a good idea how people feel.
If you let the area develop, could you service it in 5 years? Tell me how fast.
Answer: To extend sewer lines is very expensive. Someone would have to carry that
expense. The Council says the person who wants sewer line has to pay for it.
Question: Tony Berning - I had a guy come wanting to develop and he said he would pay
for the sewer line. What happens when Island View sewer systems fail?
Answer: Owners They will have to replace them.
Question: How About Riverwood? They are in big trouble.
Answer: No they are not. We inspect their system and it is doing well.
Question: I can't understand, Ag. land is the majority of Otsego. Sewer should have
been put in the middle of the City.
Answer: The City would put the sewer on the Mississippi River if it had a choice.
MPCA says no Mississippi River discharge, as ORV river, can't discharge in it
unless there is not a feasible alternative. City to put the sewer plant on the Crow
River because MPCA regards it as a feasible alternative to the Mississippi River.
Question: Why not work with people willing to put sewer and water package plants in?
You won't grow if you don't want to expand to other areas.
Answer: Private person may own a plant, but as far as the State is concerned it is
the City of Otsego's problem if anything goes wrong.
Question: Don Greninger - You said you can't run discharge into the Mississippi River.
Why did the City want to annex the Crow River/Frankfort area? Why can Albertville
discharge down Otsego Creek?
Answer: Albertville had discharge permit before that law on OVR river was passed.
The discharge outlet does not have to be in the City, the annexation did not make
any difference to the MPCA.
- Page 5 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Question: Mr. LeFebvre - Two things I don't blame the State. I am not satisfied how
much the Darkenwald plant was explored. I feel the plant will be way too expensive. If
you decide to have Ag. Preserve Area, the easiest thing is to adopt Wright County's
Feedlot Ordinance.
Answer: Explanation of Darkenwalds Plant. They cannot put another ounce of
material in the river than they do now. Cost - We met with the Darkenwalds. The
cost is 2-1/2 Million to expand their plant, which is $10.00 for each gallon of
wastewater treated. Their estimate for treatment cost is the same as ours.
Question: What research, background goes into the considered building of the plant?
Operators, etc. - What criteria? Credibility? How many mistakes? Who is finding out?
Answer: Construction bids are sealed and opened. City needs a good reason not to
go with the low bidder. Further explanation. Operator of the plant, the City
intends to contract it out and references will be asked for, etc.
Question: CM Wendel - I misquoted someone. If the farm with no animals, I thought you
can not restock the farm - restart it within five years or one year?
Question: One hundred and twenty acre farm, with no animals, how many would he be
allowed? Why can't I do what I want? Ordinance governing feedlots discussed. Ten
years ago there were allot of farms. It is an Ag. Community. Don't feel we should
destroy it. 10 years ago I wanted it to be country. If there are people who want to sell
their farm, restricting them is a total injustice.
Question: Why can some governmental body tell people they cannot increase or sell, Why?
The reality is the cat is out of the bag, Ag and residential is a nightmare. Let farmer do
what he wants, or let the farmer sell his land and go elsewhere.
Question: How did the Council feel about NASCAR Racetrack? For or against?
Answer: The race track would have paid Millions of dollars to the city, the first
reaction is, I want to see that application.
Answer: Mayor Fournier - It was a large project in the concept format. First I
thought wow, then other things, drugs, traffic, etc. came to mind. It never reached a
consensus and the developer never applied. .
Question: Resident - The NASCAR Racetrack was interested in a parking lot across
from my driveway.
Question: I understand both sides. I own 40 acres on Kadler. If it develops, they had
better not complain about my horses.
Question:Grenningers - We want to move to a farming community.
Question: CM Wendel - If farmers farm buildings are blown down, can we rebuild and
build with pole barn?
Answer: Gene Goenner - The current ordinance you can rebuild the existing
building damaged in the storm.
- Page 6 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Question: CM Wendel - You can double the animals?
Answer: CM Berning - You have to prove the amount of animals.
Question: The Race track or an outlet mall are both very large uses. What is the process
to accept or reject these?
Answer: They attend a City Staff Meeting to get the technical questions answered.
An application is filled out, and official public hearing is held at the P.C.
Meeting and they recommend to the Council. The Council considers the application
and has the final say. If contrary to the Comp. Plan, they can have a Public Hearing
to amend the Comp. Plan.
Question: Resident - If this plan is approved, how long is it good for?
Answer: Until the City wants it changed. Most plans are re-examined every 5 to 7
years.
Question: I want to know from Council what are your thoughts on Ag Preserve Area?
Answer: June 24th, 1998 is the PC/CC Workshop Meeting where the feedback from
these meetings will be discussed.
Question: Re: development of 10 acre hobby farm? Any demand?
Answer: Mike Ziegler - They go extremely well.
Resident - If 10 acre lots why do they need a sewer system?
Answer: They don't. They are an interim land use. Explanation of the sewer and
why. Diversify tax base/bring sewer to edge of existing development area for ability
to hook up.
Question: #94 and #19 freeway interchange, what time frame?
Answer: There is none. The interchange is something Albertville wants, but the
estimated cost to the State is 5 million. NO one knows if it will ever be built.
Question: I don't understand why restriction on building on farms?
Answer from Richard Nichols - Livestock Buildings are restricted.
Question: Mike Ziegler - 10 acre parcel and no animals, they can't have horses?
Answer: Up to 10 Animal Units allowed - not considered Feedlot.
Question: I feel the City Council is doing a good job. I Hate to be in their shoes deciding
these issues.
Question: Stewart Turnquist - I think each person should have a right to sell their land.
City has to pay for their sewer. I don't know if this is an open forum. (clusters North of
#39 would create high buck houses, tax base thought. Cluster to the north and south, why
hold up these people who can't farm? Create a Free Ag Enterprise District there. How do
you define farming? Create an Enterprise on land, allow a process to sell Ag. products
on site. Make Free Enterprise Zone to the Ag. area.
Answer: You can sell produce now on site.
Question: I have 3-1/2 acres on the River, am an avid gardener as my hobby. My first
concern was greenhouse. I wanted to design and connect it to my house. When on the
river I found I could not operate a business. I could grow, sell at farmers market.
Answer: Those are the State's rules for the Wild and Scenic river Zone. The City
doesn't have those restrictions.
- Page 7 - Third Informational Meeting on Rural Preserve Area 6/9/98 8PM
Question: Mike Ziegler - You can't keep it all Ag or develop it all. Feels Ag can still
expand and live with development. 250 ft. setback from Ag land and 2-1/2 to 9 acres
make it blend.
Question: The Farmers - Should be one or the other.
Question: Wouldn't Ag Preservation Area be wise? No harassment from farming from
2-1/2 acre lot people.
Question: We shouldn't be able to sell our farmland because my neighbor wants open
space? History proves growing too fast not good either - Will be problems.
Resident - Problem I have, if 2 acre lots around me, I won't be here. Someone will replace
me. You guys don't care about me. Let farmers farm. If we want to sell, let us do it. If
developers want to develop, let them do it.
Resident - I agree - Planning/coordination of development should be well thought out. If
development in the middle, with no services, it should make sense, with services and
planning in a sensible manner.
Question: 30 or 35 years ago Wright Co. allowed one house per acre. Council has 30
years to get service to the rest of the area.
Question: Tony Berning - In the Ag. Reserve - one question, all these farmers my age or
younger, how many of you ever figured you would be able to sell for development when
you bought? Some people noted they did. If our City would protect Ag, farmers could
have an Ag market. Should be one way or the other. I like to see Ag - No restrictions
now on feedlot expansions.
Hearing no further comments, Mayor Fournier - Thanked everyone for attending.
He said, "We asked for your input and we had good discussion. We encourage you
to fill out forms. We are listening. When we put it together, I hope you come to the
Public Hearing. The Council and Planning Commission know where you are
coming from. "
Rough Minutes by Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Adm.
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File: '98INFOM.WPS