07-01-98 PCCITY OF OTSEGO
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
JULY 1, 1998 - 8:00 PM
OTSEGO CITY HALL
1 Chair Carl Swenson will call the meeting to order:
Chair Carl Swenson called the Planning Commission Meeting to order at 8:05PM.
ROLL CALL:
Present: Chair; Carl Swenson, Commissioners; Bruce Rask, Jim Kolles, Arleen Nagel,
Richard Nichols, Eugene Goenner arrived at 8:10 PM.
Council Representative; Vern Heidner, Mayor; Larry Fournier, Councilmembers; Mark
Benning, Suzanne Ackerman, and Virginia Wendel.
Staff: Mike Robertson, City Administrator; Dan Licht, Assistant City Planner; Elaine
Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Administrator.
2. Consideration of the Planning Commission Minutes of June 17, 1998
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO ADOPT THE JUNE 17, 1998 PLANNING COMMISSION
MEETING MINUTES AS WRITTEN. ARLEEN NAGEL SECONDED THE MOTION. ALL IN
FAVOR. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
3 Public Hearing for applicants/Owners Chris and Kari Haeska, 14833 70th St.
NE, Otsego MN 55330 PID#118-500-331100 Legal description is: The
West 495,700 ft of the Fast 990 00ft of the N 440 00 ft of the NE O iaarter of
See. 33, Twp 121, R 23, Wright Co Mn Subject to Public Right of Way and
_subject to easements of record if any. Propel y is located on Packard Ave NE
and Co. Rd.# 39
Chair Swenson read the applicants request. City Clerk, Elaine Beatty noted the proper
publishing, posting and mailing has been done.
Dan Licht gave the staff report. The applicants are requesting an Interim Use Permit to
keep horses within the R-2 District, Immediate Urban Service Area (Large Lot). In
addition, the proposed accessory building would exceed the allowed 2,000 sq. ft. This
requires approval of a Condition Use Permit. NAC recommends approval of the applicants
request subject to seven conditions listed in their report dated June 24, 1998. (see attached)
Chair Swenson explained the formal procedure and opened the Public Hearing.
Bryce Northrup He lives west of Haeskas and gives them his full support. Sees no
reason why what they are requesting would be a problem.
Virginia Wendel asked if it would be different for cattle or steers. Dan Licht said they are
not allowed.
Chair Swenson brought the discussion back to the Planning Commission. There was none.
Went back for public comment, but no one wished to be heard.
Chair Swenson closed the Public Hearing.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 2
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO APPROVE THE APPLICANTS REQUEST FOR AN
INTERIM USE PERMIT TO ALLOW FOR UP TO FIVE (5) HORSES SUBJECT TO THE
SEVEN CONDITIONS LISTED IN NAC'S REPORT. EUGENE GOENNER SECONDED THE
MOTION. ALL IN FAVOR. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF A CONDITIONAL USE
PERMIT TO CONSTRUCT A BUILDING EXCEEDING 2,000 SQ. FT. BRUCE RASK
SECONDED THE MOTION. ALL IN FAVOR. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
This will be on the City Council Agenda for July 13, 1998 at 6:30 PM.
4 Any Comprehensive Plan Discussion (Note* Continue to incorporate
Informational Meeting Information into the Draft Comb Plan with the P C /City
Council and 4t ff)* (*revised agenda)
Chair Swenson turned the meeting over to Mayor Fournier to continue on with the
Comprehensive Plan Discussion. Mayor Fournier welcomed everyone. He noted that we
have already discussed the Sanitary Sewer District and the Urban Service Area Reserve.
Dan Licht, Assistant Planner said he would like to discuss interim use - verses - ultimate
land use and what can occur between the two. A property owner in the sanitary sewer
district, wants their area to remain rural. They want to subdivide and build another home.
Under the current plan, they would not be able to subdivide, they would have to wait until
sewer service is available.
Mayor Fournier questioned with the new plan, they would not be able to build a single
family home? Mr. Licht explained that under the current zoning, no, nor under the Draft
Plan.
(Clerk Beatty noted that Paul Levenson had visited her office this week and stated
he was sorry he could not make this meeting.)
CM Heidner questioned if Mr. Levenson could apply for a PUD? Answer, no.
It was noted that Mr. Levenson's land is in the extreme SW portion of #101 area.
CM Wendel noted that Mr. Levenson was in a long time ago and we told him no, wait for
the Comp. Plan. Couldn't we see fit to bend and let him have two lots?
Dan Licht said we could either change it to low density in this area, or exclude it from the
immediate urban service area, but he would be in the 4 per 40 area then and would still not
be able to subdivide any further.
Commissioner Nichols asked, if there are already homes there on large lots, why the high
density? Mr. Licht explained we are suggesting redevelopment in this area. Low density
to the West reflects the existing neighborhood.
Commissioner Goenner stated he is in favor of leaving the map as drawn. The ultimate
and best use for that property. He is not in favor of increasing any non -conformities in
that area.
Administrator Robertson explained that high density probably wouldn't be compatible, but
a duplex would. He wanted everyone to be aware that we had a person in at Staff
Meeting looking at a higher density development for this area.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 3
CM Wendel asked if we are going to tell Paul Levenson, no, you cannot subdivide? Dan
explained it was medium density, or low density residential. CM Wendel said we told Mr.
Levenson to wait, now we are telling him the same.
Commissioner Rask stated he agreed with Commissioner Goenner that we have to look at
the whole, what is best for the community. He said this is just like the Lin -Bar
development. It does not fit the plan. We make a decision for what's good for the
community, not just one individual.
Commissioner Nagel questioned if left as is, could he subdivide? Dan Licht explained,
there would be no development without sewer and water in this district.
Mayor Fournier asked if we leave it as is, can he ask for an amendment to the Comp.
Plan? Answer: Yes.
Commissioner Nichols asked for clarification. Even if we change it to low density
residential, he could split, but not build a home until sewer is available? Yes.
Mayor Fournier asked for a show of hands to leave it medium to high density (7 people
voted yes) or Low density Q people voted yes)
Administrator Robertson asked if existing residential use and they have damage, can they
rebuild? Dan Licht said, per the proposed plan, yes. The other issue is someone comes in
and builds on one per forty and ghost plats (for future re -subdivision w/sewer and water),
for the future when sewer and water comes in three years or so, is that concept
acceptable? The consensus of the group was that both of these scenarios were acceptable.
Dan Licht - Long Range Urban Service Area - June 24, 1998 Meeting - four (4)
comments to discuss.
1. There was a request to allow remaining undeveloped land east of Nashua Avenue to
develop as 1 -Acre lots.
Dan Licht read from the policy plan. Consensus was asked for: Consensus was
not to let this area develop in 1 -Acre lots.
Com. Nichols - Even the larger 20 to 40 acre lots would be frozen unless the developer is
willing to pay to extend the lines? Yes, Dan explained the street extension.
Dan Licht said North of #19 (Ray Slavick's land) - They want Industrial along this strip.
They want the entire property designated for development.
CM Heidner - Felt we should wait until sewer is provided.
CM Wendel - If Mr. Slavick has intention to develop into Commercial, why not consider it
now, rather than wait? She explained the Albertville/Otsego Subcommittee Meeting (see
attached minutes, which she read).
Dan Licht explained Otsego's development in this area would probably depend on sewer.
We did change the tree farm to Commercial. We can look at redoing the Comp. Plan
when sewer is expanded.
CM Wendel - Albertville would like to hear something back from us. She discussed the
extra expense of redoing the Comp. Plan.
Mayor Fournier felt that changing the Slavick property development to Commercial
without sewer is premature.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 4
CM Wendel asked if we can write something into the plan regarding this Slavicks
Commercial? When sewer is available it can be commercial.
Dan Licht - That is basically what we are saying. He explained further how it would
work. The Comp. Plan suggests more urban uses can occur with sewer.
A consensus was taken - Designate it commercial - 2 people - Wait for more information -
8 people.
RURAL ESIDENT AL. PRESERVE NORTH OF Co.Rd. 39 BY THE
MISSISSIPPI RIVER!
Dan Licht explained that Rural Cluster housing with open space development is being
looked at. Most people are positive, but they need more specifics. One question - What
is the appropriate density to allow cluster development? 10 -units per acre, higher or
lower?
Mayor Fournier questioned what if the City sewer and water comes to this area?
Dan Licht explained that this area probably will not get sewer in the future. It would be
preserved as more of the rural character. It was not anticipated to be sewered.
Mayor Fournier asked what if sewer is available?
CM Wendel - Interested in what kind of sewer, who maintains it? Does not like the
clustering idea.
Administrator Robertson said he asked those questions of the Lake Elmo Planner
to see how they handled it. They said the City has to make a decision what they want for
that area and that decision will drive what they allow in the open space. Lake Elmo allows
open space with space with tall grass. The concept is very popular in Lake Elmo. The
low end home value is a quarter million and the high end is much higher. The open space
is the key issue for decisions to be made.
Com. Rask - Clustering is a great idea if you are promoting farming. He explained further.
I like the idea, but concerned with the maintenance of open space.
Com. Nichols - Part of it is all natural prairie. Set it up where no maintenance of the grass
(no weeds). Felt there are ways to do this with maintenance not being a problem.
CM Heidner - Would like policies in the Comp. Plan that would prohibit large open areas
from being turned over to the City. More discussion. Keep it on the tax rolls.
Com. Goenner asked what density is in Lake Elmo? Administrator Robertson said that
each development has been different. 10 to 12 per 40. Dan Licht stated that Marine on
the St. Croix has the same density.
CM Berning - Allowing cluster or high density along the river would that prematurely
force sewer up there? Dan Licht explained how either communal septic or individual
septic w two spots for septic designated.
Chair Swenson - Open space, I wonder if we might not expect some help from the
developer as to different ways of using it.
Administrator Robertson - It is easy for the City not to take open space by not allowing
Outlots. The concept plan is 4 per 40 and explore cluster development of 10 per 40.
A special zoning district needs to be developed for that.
CONSENSUS: The plan will remain 4 per 40 if clustered.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 5
AGRICULTURE P ESERV AREA:
Dan Licht explained that 1 per 40 is the density now. This was not changed, as it is open-
ended as how to go with it. Three ways it can go: 1). Continue to farm. 2). Residential
Development allowed. 3). Leave as is presently. The City wants options:
Dan Licht noted that the City is interested in providing reasonable use of the property to
the highest density possible and maintaining the City's goals. Other option:
Allow some form of residential development. Consider with allowing some areas to
develop. He showed Lakeville's plan which allows staging of growth in the rural areas.
Four per forty with ten acre minimum lot size in the rural area. He also showed City of
Plymouth's land use and explained the map.
CM Ackerman felt that Lakeville and Plymouth is totally different than Otsego. Dan Licht
explained that Lakeville was the same as Otsego 25 years ago.
CM Berning asked what St. Michael did? Dan said they allow higher density to work out
from the core city with faster development.
Mayor Fournier said Dan Licht is giving us samples as options.
Mike Robertson said we are talking about different general concepts, either leave it as Ag
Preserve or allow growth with management or allow growth without management.
CM Heidner - What is managed growth options? If the group wants option 1, we may
need nothing else.
Mayor Fournier questioned - Do you want 1 per 40 Ag Preserve? Two people said yes.
Gene Goenner and Bruce Rask
Mike Robertson - A show of hands for the other two options. Determine the density and
allow the market to do it.
Com. Nichols - Anyone in favor of no managed growth? Farmers who want to sell, can't
He explained further. Whatever we end up doing, we owe it to people to get the value
out of the farm they pay taxes on.
He felt that Lakeville may work. Allow Ag preserve to go 4 to 40 with reasonable
number on it.
Mayor Fournier - I can support it and when sewer and water is available we can develop
at higher density.
CM Wendel - Also include package plants?
Mayor Fournier - If the City approves the sewer and water.
Com. Nichols - Does not disagree with that.
CM Berning - Four ten acre lots? Dan Licht said it is an ordinance issue. You should
include a comment in the comprehensive plan.
Com. Goenner - With 4 per 40, I see a conflict with animals, more residential around the
farm, not financially feasible for a farm to relocate. We would have all these large lots
which are not a manageable size.
Mayor Fournier - Large lot is easier to redevelop later on.
Com. Goenner - What lot size do they have in rural area of Lakeville? Answer, 10 Acre
minimum. Who Maintains it? In the Eastern area it is all farms, the West area more hobby
farms, trees and wetlands, not all mowed yards.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 6
Com. Nichols asked Dan Licht what is the lot size in Corcoran & Greenfield?
Dan did not know, but Medina is 20 Acre lots.
CM Wendel - If 4 per 40 it allows one home for ten acres. Why can't people in the Ag
area develop with sewer and water?
CM Berning asked if we are going to support package plants? Dan Licht - All plants need
to be city approved and city owned.
Com. Rask - We should not pass laws based on economics only. You don't pass laws just
to make it economical for someone to develop. We have to fill in the sewer area.
CM Berning asked about Lakeville and feedlots? Answer: They no longer have feedlots.
CM Wendel commented on Com. Rask's comments. Number of farms 8 to 10 in Otsego -
The rest quit due to health, age, or no money in farming. Since 10 to 15 years ago, it has
changed. People want an option to do something with their land.
Com. Rask - At our expense? Money dictates, we are here as planners.
Mayor Fournier suggested changing the Ag Preserve area to 4 per 40, unless the City
approves sewer and water, then it can be developed at higher densities.
CM Wendel - The City owned and approved, does that mean Albertville sewer?
Answer: City owned, yes.
Com. Nichols stated he wants to hear more comments from people who want to continue
farming.
CM Ackerman needs more information.
Mayor Fournier asked her to define "Information".
Com. Nichols - Wanted to know what the current feedlot /land use density is for
Corcoran, Greenfield, Monticello, Sherburne County, Hassan, and St. Michael.
Com. Rask -Those communities also have to have sewer at the same time. The question
is, how are we going to manage Ag preserve land?
Com. Goenner said if you increase density in that area, farmers will be short of land.
Com. Nichols has same concern as Com. Goenner. Good planning is studying what other
people have done and learn from them. 4 per 40 would not be in competition with the
sewer and water area.
Com. Rask - We inspected everyone's feedlot ordinance in creating our own and we still
created a problem.
CM Berning - 4 per 40 and ten acre lots, what do you do with the back forties? Is it
feasible to develop? Dan Licht said you can density transfer.
CM Heidner - When lots are sold in ten acre chunks, how much money do they get?
Com. Goenner said that Sherburne County sells a lot of those.
The group was in consensus to table discussion until more information was gathered.
Park and Trails
Dan Licht explained the concept. There was a comment to move the park search area to
the river (Kadler area).
Com. Goenner is in favor of moving it closer to the river on the West side by Elaine
Norin's Farm.
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES of July 1, 1998 cont'd
Page 7
Com. Nagel stated she is also in favor of being closer to the river. It makes more sense to
have river access. CONSENSUS - Move it closer to the river.
County Road #19 Trail Issue:
CM Wendel - We have inquired with Wright Co. and it is anticipated to be four to seven
years when they overlay Co.Rd.#19 they will add bike path (paved shoulders).
CM Berning - A better Policy would be to locate trails only where they are actually
desired. Get a rough idea where you want the trail to go and have the developer put it in.
Chair Swenson - Put Co Rd.#19 on the Counties bike plan.
CM Wendel agreed paved shoulders is in the County plan.
Community Facilities Plan:
Sewer and water - Questions about capacity and location of the plant.
Administrator Robertson said the plant would be 200,000 gals for the first phase. Desire
for a post office, the city does not have a lot of control - Can suggest one.
Mayor Fournier - We do have a subcommittee to look at how to attract a Post office.
CM Wendel explained that she contacted the Post Master and we have only one complaint
and good service. Everybody needs to write a letter of complaint and maybe it will help
us get a post office. We can list it in our plan as a goal.
Dan Licht discussed briefly the following:
Police, Fire and rescue - The plan addresses it.
Economic Development - How do we compete?
Property maintenance and code enforcement.
Dan Licht noted the importance of our growth to the School Districts. One way to
address this is not allow premature development. The City can write in the plan that if
services are not available, you would have to wait. Need to have inter -government
communication.
Mayor Fournier stated that School District #728 is aware of the sewer and water plans
and are planning on growth.
Transportation Plan:
Wayne Becker said that the Nashua extension divides his property.
Mike Robertson explained - This is based on the County, that plans to take over Nashua
Avenue and turn it into a County Road.
Mayor Fournier stated that they will mingle informally with the public and answer
questions.
There was no other business.
Workshop date was set for July 15, 1998 at 8PM.
COMMISSIONER RASK MOTIONED TO ADJOURN. ARLEEN NICHOLS
SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
Jami /Kolles, Secretary
Minutes by Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Adm.
File PC7-1-98.WPS