08-05-98 PCCITY OF OTSEGO
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
AUGUST 5,1998 - 8 PM
MINUTES
1 Chair Carl Swenson will call the meeting to order:
Chair Swenson called the Planning Commission Meeting to order at 8:00pm.
ROLL CALL:
Present: Carl Swenson, Chair; Planning Commission Members; Bruce Rask,
Eugene Goenner, Jim Kolles, Arleen Nagel, Richard Nichols, Christian Mbanefo.
Ing Roskaft had an excused absence.
Mayor Larry Fournier, Vern Heidner, P.C. Council Rep., Virginia Wendel,
Suzanne Ackerman and Mark Berning Council Members were also present.
Staff: Dan Licht, Assistant City Planner; Mike Robertson, City Administrator;
Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Administrator
2 Consideration of the Planning Commission Minutes of June 3, 4,x,10,1998
Informational Meetings and Regular Planning Commission Meetings of June 24
and July 1, 1998.
A PC/CC Meeting of June 3,4,9,10,1998:
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED ADOPTION AS WRITTEN. ARLEEN NAGEL
SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY
B Planning Commission/Council Workshop Meeting of June 24,1998:
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED ADOPTION AS WRITTEN. CHRISTIAN
MBANEFO SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
C Planning Commission Meeting of my 1,1998:
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED ADOPTION AS WRITTEN. ARLEEN NAGEL
SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
3 Public Hearing for applicant/Owner Keith E Knutson, 6630 Odean Avenue
NE, Otsego MN 55330 PID#118-500-332401 South of 70th Street on Odean Ave
NE in Sec 33, Twp 121, R 23, Wright Co MN Request is as follows:
A Conditional Use Permit to allow the following:
A. In excess of 2,000 square feet of accessory building space
B. A pole frame constructed building
C. An Ornamental Wind Device (Approximately 45' high)
Chair Swenson explained the proper procedure for Public Hearings. Dan Licht,
Assistant City Planner from NAC explained his report dated July 28, 1998. He read the
seven (7) conditions for the Conditional Use Permit Re: More than one detached
Accessory building, pole frame constructed building in excess of 2,000 sq. ft. He also
read the three (3) conditions regarding the ornamental windmill Conditional Use Permit.
Chair Swenson asked the applicant if he wished to speak. Mr. Knutson stated that he
can take two of the sheds down, but he has five acres of land and he needs the shed on
the north portion of the lot.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5, 1998
AT 8PM - PAGE 2 -
He has bought a new metal building to replace one of the existing sheds. He agrees that
the sheds are in a state of disrepair.
Chair Swenson owned the hearing to the Public.
No one spoke.
The discussion came back to the Planning Commission:
Commissioner Nichols questioned the new building not being put up yet, is it part of this
application? Answer, no.
Mr. Knutson stated the 10 x 10 shed is rusty and he bought a new one to replace it. The
storage building closer to the house is a frame building. He intends to remodel it and
make it match the house.
No one spoke.
Chair Swenson Closed the Public Hearing,
The Planning Commission continued dic . us ion:
Commissioner Goenner noted he had driven by the property and agreed that the two utility
sheds are not looking that great. There were allot of other things scattered around. He
feels with 6,000 sq ft of accessory space, it is the best interest of the City for the smaller
buildings to be removed.
Chair Swenson asked if there is a second story on the building? Answer, no. Mr.
Knutson explained the modified post frame building style. The existing shed by the pole
building site, he could remove that. The North end of the property, he needs the
buildings.
Commissioner Nichols questioned Item #4 same or suitable quality finishing materials.
Does that include or exclude the red building finish? Dan Licht explained and read from
the ordinance. He felt it was not the materials, but the compatibility issue. Discussion of
color of building being all red. No, it will have white trim._The type of steel is G-90
galvanized 29 gauge steel. More discussion of sheet metal, and it not being allowed in the
City. The surrounding area has similar buildings was noted. "Like building material". The
consensus of the P.C. was to approve same.
#1 MOTION:(INCLUDES A. AND B. ABOVE)
COMMISSIONER NICHOLS MOTIONED TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE
CUP TO ALLOW CONSTRUCTION OF AN ACCESSORY POLE BUILDING
GREATER THAN 1,500 SQUARE FEET IN SIZE, WITH TOTAL ACCESSORY
AREA GREATER THAN 2,000 SQUARE FEET, AND MORE THAN ONE
DETACHED ACCESSORY STRUCTURE, SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS 1 - 7
OF NAC'S REPORT DATED JULY 28, 1998. EUGENE GOENNER
SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT 8PM - PAGE 3 -
CUP for an Ornamental wind device was discussed
Commissioner Nichols questioned if the applicant could set
the windmill 35' back instead of 30' to come into compliance
with the required setback. Answer, Yes. After
the post frame building is built, he will decide where to
place the windmill.
42 MOTION:(C ABOVE)
COMMISSIONER NICHOLS MOTIONED TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF A
CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT TO ALLOW THE CONSTRUCTION OF AN
ORNAMENTAL WINDMILL WITH A HEIGHT OF 45 FEET, SUBJECT TO THE
THREE CONDITIONS OF NAC'S REPORT DATED JULY 28, 1998 AND THE
WINDMILL BEING WITHIN IN THE REQUIRED ORDINANCE SETBACKS.
COMMISSIONER MBANEFO SECONDED THE MOTION. LOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY
These items will he on the August 10,1998 City Council Meeting at 6:30PM.
4. Comprehensive Plan:
Chair Swenson turned the meeting over to Mayor Fournier who welcomed everyone. He
stated he wanted to go to Item B, to set the Hearing date for the Comp. Plan.
CM Wendel agreed ASAP to set the Hearing.
Commissioner Goenner wants the plan completed first and he explained further.
CM Wendel said we promised a July Hearing, we need to set a date and get the
moratorium off so development in the East can get started.
Mayor Fournier stated the City has bonded for the sewer and water project and
has to have development in order to pay for the system.
Commissioner Rask asked what is the time frame? Mayor Fournier said he
wanted to look at preliminary plats this fall and have construction with hookup in late
1999. Commissioner Rask said he felt we should be timely, but he does not care about
developers. Is the City ready is more important. He does not want a premature decision.
CM Heidner stated we are neither delaying or speeding up for any one land
owner, why don't we get it done.
Discussion of how much time Dan Licht needs to get the document together. Dan
explained the Comp. Plan is almost ready to go and asked how much time is needed to
review by City officials. He could have it ready for Sept. 2nd. Hearing. The week of
August 17th, he could have the report ready. He assumes the Council and P.C. want to
review it again
B Set Public Hearing date for Comp Plan
COMMISSIONER RASK MOTIONED FOR SEPTEMBER 2, 1998 AT 8PM BE
NOTICED FOR A PUBLIC HEARING FOR THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN.
COMMISSIONER NICHOLS SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED
WITH COMMISSIONER GOENNER VOTING AGAINST.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT 8PM - PAGE 4 -
A Continue review of the Section 8 An Area with new information from
the Planner,
Dan Licht provided additional information and his NAC August 4, 1998 report was
distributed which showed the effects of different development densities. He reviewed
NAC's Memo with an overhead. He showed a map of farmsteads with animals, large
parcels and residential users. The Western part of the City has 31 farmsteads with
animals, 20 with no animals, and 119 residential use properties. He also showed the
effect on future development of the 300 feet existing setbacks from feedlots, and
reciprocal setbacks of 300 feet from either farm or residential. Dan noted that the
current 300' setback from a feedlot, or establishing a 300' reciprocal setback, both leave
some large areas for future development as either feedlots or housing.
Chair Swenson asked if the setback of the farm is from the edge of the property or the
building? Dan explained this is showed with setback from existing buildings and the
residential buildings shown from property line out. It was noted that with reciprocal
setbacks, you are increasing the non -conformities. Dan explained the Council would
decide how to deal with non -conformities.
Dan Licht also demonstrated the effects of 1,000 ft reciprocal setback on the map with
the overlay of wetlands, water bodies. He noted with a 1500 ft setback, you are reduced
to only 40 acres of open space in the middle of the area. The AG. area property
ownership was showed and passed out to the audience. Dan stated that it shows quite a
few large properties. Dan cautioned that a lot of assumptions were used to make these
maps. He viewed lot splits and development rights and looked at how many development
rights were used and how many were left. He explained the map and the one per forty,
eight per forty and ten per forty development densities.. He reviewed the chart on Page
#I and on page #2 the ranges of future possible development based on the varying
densities were shown.
Mayor Fournier again started discussion/question period.
Commissioner Rask felt we should support farm activity. He will support one per
forty, but not higher density. It is a bad business decision for the City to let it develop.
He will not support higher density development on the West side of town unless someone
can show him how it will receive sewer, water, and other services, without bankrupting
the City.
CM Wendel - She is for farmers farming if they want and also developing if they
want.
Mayor Fournier asked what we should do with the Ag. Area?
Christian Mbanefo said last meeting he was going back and forth on what to do. We are
at an impasse. Would it be best to stay Ag or split it up? It makes sense to protect the
farmers. He felt allowing development would cause more conflict.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT SPM - PAGE 5 -
CM Ackerman - Stated she was going back and forth also. She supported 5 -acre
lots close to Nashua Avenue, and then 10 to twenty acres going West to Monticello
Township. That way we could save green space.
Mayor Fournier asked CM Ackerman if there would be any buffer area for the
farms? CM Ackerman said leave it as it is now.
Commissioner Rask said let the land owners figure it out themselves? We can't
do that. It is not good planning. It won't work. We have to decide if we support farms or
not. 1000 ft setbacks leave nothing left of the City, it is a waste of time. 300 ft setbacks
will support farmers West of Nashua. Farmers do not have god given rights to develop at
a higher density. One per forty I will support. If you out vote me, I support pumping
septic every two years.
Commissioner Nichols said we need some middle ground. You need larger areas
on perimeter to allow larger developments like 4 in 40 and try to keep the center of the
City as concentrated Ag area and allow one in forty. You would have to change the
ordinance and end up with development coming from both ends. Monticello has more
housing on the West border than we do. The area East of Nashua is the future
development area of the City, with open land and less homes than the area of Ag
Preserve. We need staged development or it won't work.
Commissioner Nagel said she feels it should remain mainly Ag. If you develop
without water and sewer, we will run into a problem until Albertville says sewer is
available. She supports it remaining Ag.
CM Heidner talked about Dan's figures and how they added up. Dan Licht
explained it was a cross-over between his field inspection and the map he got from Mr.
Goenner.
Commissioner Kolles liked Richard Nichols idea. He didn't believe there should
be any increase in the 300 ft setbacks. Feedlots with recripical setbacks might be
prohibitive in that area. Commissioner Kolles did not know of anywhere in Otsego
where there is room for a 500 to 700 dairy cow herd. He felt 200 to 300 dairy cow herd,
strictly a family farm operation, would be the largest he would want in Otsego.
CM Heidner agreed with Jim Kolles. Three hundred feet setback area is a
concern only with larger operations. He is not opposed to new feedlots with limited
maximum size. The current operations are allowed to expand. Concerned with 200
acres with 10,000 animal units. People here now should be allowed to expand.
CM Berning questioned Dan on reports on the tax base that a house generates -
low density houses are not favorable. How about 10 acre lots? Dan answered that the
intent is to encourage higher value homes at a certain size and quality for the 10 acre lots.
He referred to Medina, Corcoran and Plymouth that are flat areas in which 10 acre
housing occurs. He did not know if the market exists for this in Otsego.
CM Berning said in the past Albertville has said we can give you sewer, but we
want the land and tax base as part of it.
Commissioner Rask said he would pay for sewer, but did not want to give up land
or taxes to Albertville.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT SPM - PAGE 6 -
CM Berning said that if we go with supporting Ag, it goes against what the City
has been doing for the last 4 to 5 years. He is worried that the City would change its
mind two years later.
CM Wendel said the people on the West will probably not move to the East side
of Otsego anyway. It is the persons choice.
Commissioner Rask said he does not see this any more than a 10 year plan. If we
do not support farming, we need an ordinance to do rural development, clusters, etc. He
urged the Council to go to Albertville and work out a plan for sewer.
CM Heidner asked the Ag. business owners about investments in a new barn, etc.,
how long do you need to use it to pay for itself? Commissioner Goenner said he needs a
15 year minimum if any capitol is put in.
CM Heidner said therein is the problem. We have grown too fast in the past and
he doesn't feel we can give them a plan to take to the bank.
Chair Swenson said if West of Kadler area we want to allow development and
support farms in the middle, people who want to build could buy the 10 acres and some
land would develop on the edge of the City. It may help credibility to go ahead with a
phased approach that is slow.
Bruce Rask supported Carl Swenson if there is a 300' setback as it would be more
houses encroaching on farms. How long would it take for the East side infill to fill up?
10 to 20 years Dan estimated.
Richard Nichols thought Vern raised a good point. Less than 2 years ago feedlot
ordinance was passed. This points out you have to write a comp plan and stick to it. You
cannot write a plan and change it.
CM Heidner said that it has been 8 years since the City looked at changes in the
Comp. Plan.
CM Heidner said he has not heard any criticisms of allowing development W. of
Kadler.
Gene Goenner said it knocks out 1/3 of the City. The E 1/2 receives pressure no
matter what. 1/3 of the City would be an Ag area. Those roads West of Kadler are
currently the least maintained.
CM Wendel felt most of the people at the last meeting were from County Road 19
and West. Not everybody wants to develop. Ken Zimmer and Floyd Roden want to
develop. West on 70TH developers want to develop. It is about time we listen to our
taxpayers.
Mayor Fournier agreed with Bruce that development needs to be orderly. How
much we support Ag uses need to be determined. If not willing to support Ag uses, offer
farmers 4 per 40 or higher density with City approved sewer and water. You have to
provide a buffer zone for existing farms to prevent encroachment.
Richard Nichols does not support industrial use of animal Ag. He supports
family farms, but does not think there is any place in the City for the large scale
operations.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT SPM - PAGE 7 -
CM Wendel asked for a clarification. Does the P.C. recommend and the Council
approves or disapproves?
Mayor Fournier explained that is true, but for both groups to meet together and
develop a consensus is very helpful.
CM Heidner said large animal unit operations, there is no place in Otsego for
them.
CM Berning said MPCA will dictate the amount of animal units allowed
according to the size and type of land.
Commissioner Christian Mbanefo felt things change and we have to start
somewhere. At 7,000 acres, how many animal units will the Western part of Otsego
support?
Bruce Rask - Why do we care if MPCA sets the limit?
Richard Nichols did not feel that would work. He proposed to allow the area West of
Kadler 4 in 40 and 1 acre lots in the rest of the West. Then haggle out what the feedlot
ordinance should be.
CM Wendel would like to see Co. Rd. #19 W as the boundary for development 4
per 40.
Gene Goenner said if you make it W of 19, you may just as well make it Nashua.
Mayor Fournier asked if we should come back in a week?
Chair Swenson felt we should get a consensus and see if the majority would go
along with the 4 per 40 W. of Kadler.
CM Wendel questioned the Rodens and Zimmers who have requested to develop.
She was answered that it is already in the plan development there can happen with sewer
and water.
Mayor Fournier - Maybe it is appropriate to wait until the Albertville/Otsego
meeting to see what can be worked out about sewer.
Mike Robertson explained that all Albertville wants to discuss is a potential sewer
area. He said that Albertville cannot serve land in Otsego without expanding their sewer
plant. 5 to 6 years is a very optimistic timeline to get sewer and water from Albertville to
Otsego. At least 20 years before it could get to the Mississippi River. The next
expansion will cost big dollars.
Chair Swenson felt we should move ahead now if the best judgment for
Albertville sewer and water is 5 to 10 years away.
CM Heidner asked where are the farms that want to expand? Maybe we are going
about this the wrong way.
Bruce Rask said we are looking at 31 people and we can decide if it is farmland.
If sewer comes in, we can support it. What is the rational for more development next to a
Township?
Christian Mbanefo - Poor infrastructure W. of Kadler so why increase the
density?
Mayor Fournier suggested to wait until the Council meets with Albertville and
then come back on the 13th of August.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING OF AUGUST 5,1998
AT 8PM - PAGE 8 -
AUGUST 13 1998 AT 8PM WAS SET FOR THE NEXT PLANNING
COMMISSION/COUNCIL JOINT MEETING. (MAYOR FOURNIER NOTED THAT
THE GOAL OF THAT MEETING IS TO RESOLVE THIS ISSUE)
5 Any other Planning Commission Business
There was none
b. Adjourn
EUGENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO ADJOURN AT 10:50PM. CHRISTIAN
MBANEFO SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
0 O'C4. Z:� �'�/
J&AIES KOLLES, SECRETARY
NUNUTES RECORDED BY: ELAINE BEATTY
EB
FII.E: PC8-5-98.VYPS