11-10-98 SPCCITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL PLANNING
COMMISSION MEETING
MINUTES
NOVEMBER 10, 1998 - 8PM
1 Chair Carl Swenson will call meeting to order:
Chair Carl Swenson called the P.C. Meeting to order at 8PM
ROLL CALL:
Chair Carl Swenson, Richard Nichols, Gene Goenner, Jim Kolles, Commissioners and Christian
Mbanefo, Alternate. Bruce Rask and Arleen Nagel had Excused absences.
Vern Heidner, P.C., Council Rep., Mayor Larry Fournier, Suzanne Ackerman, Virginia Wendel and
Mark Berning Council Members were present.
Mike Robertson, City Administrator, Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/zoning Administrator and Dan
Licht, Assistant City Planner were present.
Mayor Larry Fournier informed the P.C. and Council Members that Ing Roskaft passed away
today.
2 Public Hearing for Proposed Zoning and Subdivision Amendments as
discussed previously by the Planning Commission The changes to the proposed
amendments were few, but included the following:
* Delete concrete curb exemption for I-3 District uses
* Delete site plan requirement for three -stall g#�rage maintaining two
stall garage,
* Delete CUP accessory building exceptions for sewered development.
* Re -title the R-1, R-21and R-3 District "Long Range Urban Service"
and amend the respective purpose statements with the new titles
ennc.stent with the Comprehensive Plan update designation,
Elaine Beatty, noted that the proper publishing's and postings had been completed
for this Public Hearing.
Dan Licht, Assistant Planner explained the proposed amendments and discussed
proposed changes.
Hearing was opened to the public. No one spoke.
Discussion was brought back to the P.C.
A typo was noted by Mr. Robertson on Pg. 1 of subdivision ordinance 3rd line
down, should read ( 4-1/2FT.) not (4/5)
Hearing was brought back to the public. No one spoke.
Hearing was closed. Discussion was brought back to P.C. No one spoke.
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE
PROPOSED ZONING ORDINANCE AMENDMENTS FROM THE PACKET.
GENE GOENNER SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY.
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO RECOMMEND APPROVAL OF THE
PROPOSED SUBDIVISION ORDINANCE AMENDMENTS PRESENTED
TONIGHT. GENE GOENNER SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION
CARRIED UNANI.MOUSLY.
CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 10, 1998 AT SPM - PAGE 2 -
It was noted that this will be on the City Council Agenda of November 23, 1998 at
6:30PM. ,
3. Any other P.C. Business
A. CM Heidner noted that Ing Roskaft's resignation had not been accepted by the
Mayor and Council. He discussed the possibility of making an honoree type position for
the P.C. which would be a non-voting member and listed in the Otsego View. It was
noted that the P.C. was formed in 1978 and Ing Roskaft, Larry Fournier and Carl
Swenson were all original members. The P.C. agreed unanimously. Discussion was had
on how long a time period this honoree position would be. (Discussion of one year)
B. Cont. w/update on Otsego - Zoning Ordinance Amendments: Rural Open Space
Cluster District - Page 6.
Deed Restrictions.
Uses - Richard Nichols felt delete "Motorized" and "equestrian" use in 3rd
paragraph down. Add after pedestrian and/or bicycle uses - "or other uses as per City
Council."
Gene Goenner questioned what was found out about open space tax
ramifications? Mike Robertson said Washington Co. Assessor said that Lake Elmo has
platted open space as outlots. They have struggled with how to value the land. Assessor
has come up with regular Ag land valuation for this.
Mayor Fournier questioned if the developer still owns open space on all cluster
development? Mr. Robertson answered, there are only a few cluster developments now
that he is aware of.
Mr. Licht noted that the developers a lot of times will want to turn over the
outlots to someone else
Chair Swenson noted that something should be in the Ordinance that indicates
that it is part of their land. Both assessors felt it was not a big problem said Mr.
Robertson
Virginia Wendel questioned Pg. #7 2nd paragraph, would the City want the land?
Vern Heidner was concerned with a homeowner's association saying they did not
want the land and let it go. Maybe a deed restriction on it and the City can buy it for
$1.00. Mark Berning felt if we did something like that the City should be able to
develope the land.
Chair Swenson felt it should be definitive.
Mayor Fournier felt the land should be tied into their lot.
Mr. Licht spoke about the land and open space being important to the
development lots. He discussed the three options on Pg. 6 and 7.
NEIGHBORHOOD PERFORMANCE STANDARDS (pg 7)
There was discussion of the requirement that five units or 25% required to be clustered
initially. Other units could be more spread out "Exhibit. B." The number can be
increased, or decreased at the discretion of the P.C.
CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 10, 1998 AT 8PM - PAGE 3 -
Mayor Fournier questioned why wouldn't it all be clustered - Not spread out. Dan
Licht replied to allow some flexibility in the project. ,
Neighborhood Orientation
Dan Licht explained on Pg. 7 Exhibit B focused to neighborhood open space, clustered
development around it.
Vern Heidner open space - We need to have development fully aware that this
doesn't take away from the requirement for Park and Trail Development Fees.
Gene Goenner - Neighborhood Configuration = If the first five are clustered, the
rest could be scattered. We should define further - He does not like "scattered"
development. He would like a minimum cluster added.
Dan Licht explained on Pg. 7 Architectural guidelines This is discretionary
and "can" is a word to encourage it.
Gene Goenner does not want cookie cutter development. We are looking at
higher end homes here. More money to have different styles.
Mayor Fournier felt we are trying to create the value and not dictate the building
materials, etc.
Richard Nichols felt we should have ability to have diversity - Not one style or the
other.
Mr. Heidner felt we should have this open.
Ms. Wendel felt she would want some land around her on the river - no cluster.
Why can't you do that? Dan Licht explained the Wild and Scenic River issues.
Richard Nichols said this is only one of the options. People are not required to
develope clusters. They can put one or four in forty acres. Ten on 40 acres only if
clustered.
Discussion of the trend being larger homes on smaller lots.
Mr. Heidner said City wide we would like to see houses closer together for
maintenance and services. More discussion of size of houses and lots
Mr. Licht explained that lot regulations on Pg. 7 encouraged diversity in sizes and
shapes with a maximum lot size of five acres being suggested. The lot width of 150'
minimum and maximum of 200' encourage proximity of houses to one another.
Mr. Nichols - Net buildable land one to five acres is 8 per 40 denotes hobby
farms, not clustering. If clustering - You need smaller lots. Larry Fournier agreed 5
acres too large for clustering - 2-1/2 acres a better maximum size.
Vern Heidner - Are they subject to overlay for future split? Minimum 150' if no
overlay. Split to 2 - 75' lots. Mr. Robertson said the Comp. Plan did not envision any
splits for sewer.
Carl Swenson agreed with no splits.
Vern Heidner liked the smaller road frontage, as the City would take care of the
roads.
CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 10, 1998 AT 8PM - PAGE 4 -
Ms. Wendel questioned if we are allowing Ag and Hobby Farm use? Dan Licht
answered - last meeting discussion was only Hobby Farm use - You can make the Hobby
Farms a CUP.
Richard Nichols questioned if we need a maximum frontage - why not control it
with acreage? Dan Licht felt the simplest way is to set maximum width. Some
discussion of coving principal and how it fits into this. (narrow curving roads with
variations in lot size).
Ms. Wendel questioned if we are allowing hobby farms in cluster development
areas? Dan Licht answered yes. More discussion.
Mr. Robertson noted that according to the City Assessor, for actual taxing
purposes under 10 acres is residential rather than a hobby farm.
Mr. Licht stated rural cluster involves keeping of animals and hobby ag.
Mr Koiles questioned if where cluster development takes place and existing
feedlots no expansion of feedlots allowed? Answer: No. If it retains Ag. Zoning it can
remain Ag.
Mr. Goenner explained it is treated the same as rural service area for feedlots -
unless asked for rezoning. If their land is rezoned, they would have to close their feedlot.
Mr. Licht said one way to handle is to be specific via CUP (what can and cannot
occur).
Gene Goenner agreed as did Richard Nichols a CUP has the Hearing process and
minimum lot width - 100'- with no maximum.
Building Envelope Regulations, Pg. 8.
Accessory Building location - I - 4 Dan Licht explained the higher standards area.
Discussion of front garages. After much discussion Richard Nichols suggested we say
that some percentage ("75%" suggested) has to be house in the front. This was agreed to.
Mark Berning and Suzanne Ackerman were in favor of having the garage even
with the house.
Larry Fournier felt we should let the market dictate it. Dan Licht explained the
remainder of Pg. 8 and reviewed Pg. 9. Building Height was discussed.
Accessory Building Size
Vern Heidner felt it should be tied to the house size
Richard Nichols thought a hobby farm may need more accessory space than a
house.
Larry Fournier agreed, but wanted lot size also included as a determining factor.
Mr. Heidner felt the maximum size should be determined by the lot size and in
no case can you go over size.
Mark Berning questioned if it would require a CUP for every accessory building?
Dan Licht explained that you can simply get a building permit if you meet the
standards. (Pole barns are not allowed in this area).
Driveway Paving
No gravel agreed to.
CITY OF OTSEGO SPECIAL PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 10, 1998 AT 8PM - PAGE 5 -
Landscaping
The tree preservation ordinance applies to all new subchvisions, and particular attention
to preserving trees.
General Development Standards
Streets
Were explained by Dan Licht. The same street standards apply, but with PUD you may
request a narrower street. Discussion of cul -du -sacs and needle streets (needle streets
were preferred by Vern Heidner) (Second line under streets - replace "justify" with
mandate.
Stormwater Management
Reviewed by Dan Licht.
Pg. 10 reviewed by Dan Licht. Utilities explained and Signage Allow signage
"monument" of natural materials, stone, etc. (Line two, typo change from "plans" to
Homeowners Association
Allowed as long as the standards exceed City standards said Mayor Fournier.
Non -Open Space Cluster Development and Conclusion
Richard Nichols wants the pictorial examples to include illustration of the coving style
development.
Dan Licht will translate the direction from the P.C. and Council into an Ordinance
for 11/18/98 8PM Meeting to review.
4. Adjourn by 10PM
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED AND CHRISTIAN MBANEFO SECONDED
THE MOTION TO ADJOURN THE MEETING. MOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY.
Meeting adjourned at 10:15PM.
J OLLES,SECRETARY
Minutes by: Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Adm, Recording Secretary
eb
ME: 99PCAE1. WPS