11-18-98 PCCITY OF OTSEGO JOINT PLANNING COMMISSION/
CITY COUNCIL MEETING
MINUTES
NOVEMBER 18, 1998 - 8PM
1 Chair Carl Swenson will call meeting to order:
Chair Swenson called the meeting to order at 8:05PM.
ROLL. CALL.:
Carl Swenson, Chair, Richard Nichols, Arleen Nagel, Gene Goenner and Jim Kolles,
Commissioners were present. Commissioners Bruce Rask and Christian Mbanefo had excused absences.
Mayor Larry Fournier, Vern Heidner, Mark Berning, Virginia Wendel and Suzanne Ackerman,
Council Members
Staff Members, Mike Robertson, City Administrator, Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning
Administrator and Dan Licht, Assistant Planner
2. Consideration of the Planning Commission Minutes of:
A. Planning Commission Meeting of November 4, 1998
RICHARD NICHOLS MOTIONED TO ADOPT MINUTES AS WRITTEN FOR NOVEMBER 4,
1998 P.C. MEETING. ARLEEN NAGEL SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY.
3. Review of the Zoning Ordinance Amendments for the Rural Open Space Cluster District_
Dan Licht reviewed November 17, 1998 Zoning Ordinance proposed Amendment for the Rural Cluster
District. He explained Section 77.
Permitted Uses:
Farm animals or horses are a CUP in this district. Open space can also be used to pasture
animals.
Tnteri—m Uses:
This is reserved for future accessory uses.
Assessor; Uses7
A -H
Conditional Uses:
This is the same as the A-2 Zoning with F. and G. added on Pg. #4.
Deity
10 per 40 with two conditions A and B. Pg. #4.
Richard Nichols asked if we need to put in standard density of 4 per 40?
Dan Licht said this is accommodated in the A-2 District.
Carl Swenson noted that Pg. #4, E. "proposed" should be (produced)
Open Space Performance Standards:
Mayor Fournier - Pg.#5, #3 - Outlot Classification, Is that appropriate?
Dan Licht explained that an outlot could be platted as a lot.
Gene Goenner - 50% buildable, is that able to be transferred? Only if you plat the whole piece
answered Dan Licht.
Vern Heidner - Thought putting houses overlooking a natural resource would be a good idea.
Gene Goenner - Asked for further explanation of the 50% buildable requirement.
Dan Licht explained that the 40 Acres buildable would be used.
Gene Goenner - What if not connected land? Would they be able to deed restrict areas to transfer
property rights'? Dan Licht didn't feel it would accomplish anything to do that.
Vern Heidner - If they had 80 acres together, next to each other, and one piece was low land -
bad land, what if they want to continue to farm?
Dan Licht - The appropriate thing would be to rezone it to R -O District and it would become one large
parcel with the farmable land the outlot. More discussion of this with Vern Heidner and density and how
the buildable number is arrived at.
CITY OF OTSEGO JOINT PLANNING COMMISSIONXITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 18, 1998 AT 8PM - PAGE 2 -
Mike Robertson explained how clustering works and more discussion of development with
clustering.
Mark Berning said if you have 160 acres all buildable and 40 houses would be clustered on one
acre lots and no transfer of property rights.
Vern Heidner - Had a problem with that and felt it was too much open space.
Dan Licht noted that the open space is considered to be part of the amenity to the development.
Vern Heidner - We want to make the roads as close as possible.
Mike Robertson - Explained how land owners needed to weigh their options. (Sometimes 4 per
40 is a better deal).
Virginia Wendel - Questioned how are we taxing this cluster development? Discussion of taxes,
roads and how it works.
Gene Goenner - Frontage road - There is probably a 2-1/2 mile section where a frontage road
could be built. On the 10 per 40 maximum, do we have a maximum number of clusters? Do we want a
maximum number of parcels in the ordinance?
Dan Licht - The Marine on the St. Croix has a minimum of 5 clustered lots.
Vern Heidner and Virginia Wendel - Were uncomfortable with the clustering and the amount of open
space.
Mike Robertson - Gave further explanation of development, roads and how open space works.
Vern Heidner - Are we saying in this area that we never expect sewer and water to go in?
Richard Nichols - Does not feel that you can say "never" sewered.
Page #5: Reviewed open space, location criteria, emphasized view sheds. You will see open
space around the houses said Dan Licht.
B. #1. Quantity - Second line questioned.
Dan Licht explained that the intent is to preserve as much open space as possible. He will add;
Page #7, #1. Natural habitat open spaces. He explained P. #6.
Vern Heidner - #2. Neighborhood natural habit and open spaces discussed - What about a single
approved building on open space. (Would need approval by the neighborhood association and the City
Council). It would be an amendment to the Development Contract.
Mayor Fournier said that part of the problem is how does the homeowner's association know they
have to go through this process.
It was agreed to add #6. Other uses as approved by the City Council via Developers
Agreement Amendment. (per Dan Licht's language)
Pg. #7. Ownership and Management was explained by Dan Licht.
Chair Swenson asked why would we allow this to be dedicated to land trust?
Gene Goenner - In land trust they assume management of it, not ownership. Mike Robertson
explained further.
Larry Fournier - who is the land trust?
Dan Licht - Explained the land trust is a group of people who work with people with large tracts
of land that want to establish environmental controls.
Mike Robertson - Suggested that we bring Pete Merges in to review outlots and taxes.
Discussion of taxes and outlots and how to structure same. ("Undivided land shares") was
discussed.
Mike Robertson - Question is the sewer and water for the future use and if it is in land trust they
can't use the land. More discussion of this issue.
Discussion of if we want to allow this land to be given to a trust. Dan Licht noted that the land
owners can do that anyway.
Richard Nichols - Questioned if we are looking for excuses to not do this open space/clustering.
Why be concerned about 50 or 100 years from now running sewer. We should look at open space now.
Gene Goenner - If it would go into land trust, we would loose our hold on the land.
CITY OF OTSEGO JOINT PLANNING COMMISSION/CITY COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES
OF NOVEMBER 18, 1998 AT SPM - PAGE 3 -
Richard Nichols - Suggested we should have Bob Engstrom come to the P.C. meeting to discuss
cluster development.
Mayor Fournier - The real issue is do we want to preserve open space. We should find out the
best way to do that if we do.
Neighborhood Performance Standards:
1. 5 -lots or 25%, Dan Licht meant to leave it blank. Tonight we discussed a max. number of
clusters. You could add a min. in one or more clusters. Dan Licht is looking for direction in minimum
number of clusters.
Richard Nichols - Likes it as is - 25%, a minimum of 5 with no maximum.
More discussion of clustering and number of lots clustered (max.) Dan Licht explained the City
has the purpose statement to fall back on.
Pg. #10. Location for view cluster - (4 -figures attached).
Pg. #11. Figure 77-D.3 - "part" change to Parke
Pg. #12.B. Reviewed by Dan Licht. 2-1/2 acre minimum is small for a hobby farm.
Mike Robertson - Will clustered hobby farms work?
Mayor Fournier - Suggested we should direct them to another area of our City.
Gene Goenner - Brought up a commercial hobby farm area - equestrian - open space -
communal barn - Subject to Council approval. More discussion of same.
Pg. 13.C. Building Envelope Regulations.
Dan Licht said he needs to add "attached garage needs to have 75% of the front facade visual
from the lot line" - under C.2. a.
D. Building Height
1. The 45' is measured to the peak of the roof (mid -point).
Page 14 - Was missing - Dan Licht reviewed from his information.
Page #2 - #2. Chair Swenson questioned is it RO or R Zero? Because it was confusing, it was agreed that
it should be changed to "R -C".
Page #4 - Section 4 reviewed. R -C is the same as A-2 District for animals and livestock
Vern Heidner questioned - Page 12 - net buildable area. We need to have enough area for two
septic systems.
Mark Berning questioned if septic is allowed to be placed in an outlot if the second septic is
used? Dan Licht - They can use outlots with a PUD.
4. Any other P.C. Business
The P.C. Meeting night change to Monday night from Wednesday was discussed. It was agreed
that this will start the month of January. Elaine Beatty will notice the meeting day change.
The first two weeks in December Dan Licht will be gone - He is getting married.
5. Adjourn by 1OPM
GENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO ADJOURN. ARLEEN NAGEL SECONDED THE
MOTION. MEETING ADJOURNED AT 9:55PM.
A S KOLLES, SECRETARY
Minutes by: Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Adm. (Recording Secretary)
eb
File: 98PCMIN. WPS