06-21-99 PCCITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
MONDAY, JUNE 21, 1999 - 8PM
MINUTES
1. Chair Carl Swenson will call meeting to order:
Chair Swenson Called the meeting to order at 8:10 PM and noted there would be a
slight delay, as we need a quorum.
ROLL CALL:
P. C.: Chair Carl Swenson, Jim Kolles, Arleen Nagel Eugene Goenner and Christian
Mbanefo, Alternate. Patrick Moonen excused absence, but arrived late. Members Bruce
Rask, and Richard Nichols had excused absences.
CITY COUNCIL:
Mayor Larry Fournier, Virginia Wendel, Vern Heidner and Mark Berning. Suzanne
Ackerman absent.
STAFF:
Mike Robertson, City Administrator, Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Zoning Administrator, Dan
Licht, City Planner and Larry Koshak, City Engineer
2 Consideration of the Planning Commission Minutes of:
A. June 7, 1999 P C Meeting
Chair Swenson noted that these minutes will be considered at the next P.C.
Meeting.
3 Continued Hearing by Applicant Chris Bulow, Bulow, Inc. P.O. Box 506, Elly
River, MN for owners Donald and Phyllis Greninger 9383 Kadler Ave. NE, Otsego,
MN PID #118-800-142402 in Section 14 Township 121, Range 24. Property is NE of
Co Rd #39 and Kadler Ave NE and is approximately 82.46 acres total Request is as
follows Cont at applicants request from June 7 1999 P.C. Meetingl
Staff report was given by Dan Licht NAC dated June 15, 1999. He noted that
there is a concept plan only for the proposed Clubhouse and bed and breakfast. For the
golf course and plat design applicant is seeking final approval. Staff held meeting
w/applicant after last P.C. meeting. Applicant submitted revised plans. Mr. Licht reviewed
changes in plans. Outlot designations explained. Basic Subdivision design has not been
changed from former submission. (Applicant noted they had explored other subdivision
designs, none were favorable). Mr. Licht noted the option that this development could be
considered under A-2 Zoning instead of cluster Development R -C. Access easement
dedications were explained for residential lots using the golf course. (Should be revised to
be on rear lot lines, not on public street). Outlot revision needed, to meet setback. Dan
explained the R -C District has 30' setback for sideline. He is looking at recommendations
from P.C. for any changes to setback they feel is needed.
Golf Course review by City Engineer. Holes #1 and #16 may cause conflict.
Engineer Koshak - Noted that this is a lot of golf course for the site. Traffic concerns on
Kadler were a concern over sitelines on County Rd #39 and Kadler Ave. There should be
adequate streets and proposed development should not impact existing development.
Mr. Licht - Amenity of Recreational trail from County Rd 39 to lot line of
development was noted. Applicant - they may be willing to construct the trail further N.
beyond lot line if easements are there.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT SPM - PAGE 2 -
Larry Koshak gave Engineering Report. There are two items left to
address, one is lot buildability. On lot 3 on E side, there is no area to support a septic.
Adequate stormwater storage that does not impact houses in a 100 yr.storm event was
discussed. If no adequate positive flow, need two 100 yr. stormwater holding areas.
Chris Bulow said that A-2 zoning would create 8 -lots w/farm property, we do not
feel is viable. He felt he was creating an amenity for all of Otsego. (golf course). Mr.
Bulow said that new residents will have special charter member privileges. Along the west
side new home owners would be allowed to access golf course at hole #7 by calling the
club house and will end on hole 6 by their homes. Lots in this setting will attract high end
buyers and high quality homes. A strict covenant will be put on buyers, as far as home
design.
Chris Bulow said he would rebuild Kadler Ave and build a trail from County 39 to
their plat line. He would like to extend the trail from our plat line to 96th St if the right of
way is there. Residents would receive low density development and increased property
values. Because Lot 2 is not buildable, he would like to try a package type septic system
for lot 1, 2 and 3. There is adequate space and good soils and great opportunity for us and
the City to learn about these type of systems.
He has applied for SBA loan and received A positive report from SBA. A PGA
professional reviewed the plans and feels it is adequate. This will create 6 to 8 full time
positions in high paying jobs, $30,000 to $50,000 per yr. Up to 50 part time positions will
be created.
HEARING OPENED TO PUBLIC.
FORMAL PROCEDURE EXPLAINED BY CHAIR SWENSON.
Lori Hoffman - 9929 Kadler - Concern with number of lots on Kadler. It is a small
space for 12 lots. She is concerned w/traffic, it is hard to see and there is a hill. Concern
with 12 additional driveways. Poses a safety concern. Main concern is that it is to much.
It is not a cluster. No other problems.
Jeff - 1052 - 97th St I have not seen a problem. Field drains beautifully. Traffic on
Kadler - people from cities come up to go fishing, 8- more houses will make no difference
to existing traffic. Kids in our neighborhood love to golf. More economic value to our
community. A very beautiful thing. Least amount of impact with the number of houses.
If you say no, you are passing on something nice.
Jay Swenson - 9322 Kadler Ave - Foundation of Otsego is community involvement and
people staying in Otsego. I am 100% in favor of this plan as is. He has come and said I
want to build a golf course. He says no problem, we will rebuild Kadler. Parks and Rees.
and residents say we would like a bike path. He says we will build it further. What better
in western Otsego than a golf course. This is not the first project for that property, others
have fallen through. Chris, a resident, one of our own, wants to develop this. I think this
is a fantastic addition to Otsego.
10088 Kadler Ave NE - Mary Kavagnah. I live N of the 12 homes that will be
developed. I am concerned w/ less setback. We are 30 feet off of lotline. I am selfishly
jelous of less than 30' lot line setback.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT SPM - PAGE 3 -
Paul Med_enwaldt ---1-092-5--97th St NE. I would like to know more about treatments of
septics of lots 1, 2 and 3. I live on the corner of 39 and not crazy about current access.
10254 - 99th St - Curtis - Are lots going to be buildable (3 -lots)? Are there going to be
houses there? Chris Bulow answered, yes. I like the golf course idea. I have a single lot
on the corner w%easement, 2-1i3 acre. I would like to know if I could have that lot
buildable in the future.
Nadine Aarvig - 9339 Kahler, ( S of 39) I work at Riverwood. This would help us get
new clients. We are hoping this will go through. We like Chris's plan.
Alex Alexander - I live West of Kadler. I am all for this plan. I would rather give young
people a golf course than a gun. I have been assessed $4000 for Kadler Ave pavement.
Discussion went back to the P.C.
Eugene Goenner - I have the same concerns I had previously. The package
treatment system, I don't know if he has looked at this for more lots. With this type of
system, the lots could be smaller. Glad to see he is looking at it for 3 lots.
Dan Licht said they could run the drainfield into the outlot in answer to Gene
Goenner's question. Staff was unaware of this type of treatment system.
Larry Koshak - Is not prepared to talk about this type of treatment system tonight
because he just recently received the information.
Christian Mbanefo - I look at the documents presented and there are a lot of things
missing. Is there a period of time you intend to tie this together. Chris Bulow - I believe
all of our plans have been submitted except the package treatment system (an additional
septic system for 3 -lots shared). Explained plans submitted. Not sure what is not
submitted. Christian - Engineer needs a lots of things. Septic information was just
discovered tonight.
Chris Bulow - Larry Koshak asked us to eleminate 1- lot. Our plan is create a small
test area instead of eleminate a lot, see if it will work in Otsego in a small scale, before a
70 - 50 cluster development.
Christian Mbanefo - asked Chris Bulow if he sees lots changed from the way they
are now. Chris explained he has looked at 25 to 30 layouts. All other layouts would
reduce the size of golf course dramatically.
Arlene Nagel asked Dan Licht the difference between traditional cluster and rural
open space cluster. Dan Licht explained (Lake Elmo) neighborhood setting surrounded by
open space. We have cluster in A-1 district which is move houses together. Explained
further by Dan Licht.
Mr. Goenner - You said you will have a covenant. What would minimum value
be? $250,000 said Chris Bulow. We would not state it at $250,000 because in 3 years it
may not be a bigger number. We would set it on amenities. Lots will be between $65,000
and $75,000.
Gene Goenner asked Larry Koshak about traffic and sitelines. With reconstruction
of the road, it would it be major reconstruction or is it correctable? Mr. Koshak noted the
issue is visibility at Kadler and t#39. There is a condition of a large tree on personal
property.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT SPM - PAGE 4 -
Mr. Goenner - With easement on Kahler on E side for access to clubhouse area, I am
concerned with the golf cart on the easement. Would that be separate trail or just
easement? Chris Bulow - We can do it as a trail. Our intention was private easement
there. If it is better to run along lot 1, we are looking at variance.
Gene Goenner - would like to see it on E side if this is approved and the front side
of houses separate from the road. Chris Bulow asked where it would access golf course?
Answer: In front of golf club house area. People to the N of lot 1 could also use public
trail easement. Lot width & 30' setback, I do not have a great problem decreasing that
since density is not greater than 10 per 40.
Jim Kolles - I have no problem with the golf course. The layout of the housing
design, I envisioned something different for the layout of the land. I thought it would be
unique. We own property on N of 39 and if I were to develop, I would do it different than
line up in straight row, unless you could decrease the number of lots.
Chris explained - The rest of the property on this side of road has natural amenities,
this does not.
Patrick Moonan. I agree I like the golf course. In terms of the housing design, I
was looking for something different and original.
Carl Swenson - We can all echo that a golf course will be an addition to the
community. It bothers me that this development would be more appropriate in A-2 zone.
I don't believe this configuration of homes accomplishes that cluster development.
Back to Public for comment
Louise Kikler - 9964 Kadler - I'm not clear where the trail will go. Chris Bulow - Right
next to road. Her property is there. If it continued to 101st, would it be on my property?
Trail would be adjoining the road, like a sidewalk, 8' wide answered Mr. Bulow.
9357- 57th St - Virginia Wendel - This development is unique because we do not have a
golf course in Otsego. St Michael just built a golf course. I would give anything to have a
golf course in my front yard. I think people here tonight expressed these feelings.
Chair Swenson - Anyone here feel you want to continue the hearing or deal
w/question?
Hearing no further comments, Chair Swenson - CLOSED HEARING.
A Rezone from A-1 General Agricultural to R -C, Residential Open
Space Cluster District.
GENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO REZONE FROM A-1, GENERAL
AGRICULTURAL TO R -C RESIDENTIAL, OPEN SPACE CLUSTER DISTRICT.
JDJ KOLLES SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
B Concurrent Concept/Development Stage PUD -CUP to allow a
privately owned commercial recreational use as required open
space and establishment of proposed staggered setbacks for
residential lots in an R -C District.
GENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO DENY THE PUD -CUP CONCEPT PLAN
BASED ON COMPREHENSIVE PLAN USE FOR R -C, RESIDENTIAL OPEN
SPACE CLUSTER DISTRICT. CHRISTIAN MBANEFO SECONDED THE
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT 8PM - PAGE 5 -
MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY TO RECOMMEND DENLAL OF
THE PUD -CUP CONCEPT PLAN.
Dan Licht noted that if the development plan in not approved, rezoning might not
be compatible, it is not an appropriate motion. The land should be recommended to stay
A-1 until an appropriate plan is received.
Christian Mbanefo recommended to rescind the rezoning motion from A-1, General
Agricultural to R -C, Residential Open Space Cluster District..
Question of it is legal to rescind after a motion is made and another is made? Answer:
You can reconsider it said CM Heidner according to Roberts Rules.
CHRISTIAN MBANEFO MOTIONED TO CHANGE THE ORIGINAL MOTION TO
RECONSIDER THE REZONING MOTION. EUGENE GOENNER SECONDED THE
MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
C. Preliminary Plat
MOTION:
GENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO DENY REZONING FROM A-1, GENERAL
AGRICULTURAL TO R -C, RESIDENTIAL OPEN SPACE CLUSTER DISTRICT.
PATRICK MOONEN SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY.
It was noted that this will be on the Council Agenda for Wednesday June 23, 1999 at
6:30PM.
4. * Hearing Bridgeland Development Co, 20141 Icenic Trail, Lakeville, Mn.
55044 for Myrtle C LuConic (Owner)„ 8922 NE Nashua Avenue NE, Otsego, MN
55330 PID #118-500-201200 (100 -acres). Legal description is the N1/2 of the NE 1/4:
also the N1/4 of the S1/2 of the NE 1/4 all in Sec. 20, Twp 121, R23 Co of Wright,
State of Mn Property is Zoned A-1 (General Agricultural).Request is as follows:
1. PUD (Planned Unit Development) Concept Plan Review
*(NOTE: Attached is a letter from Peter Knaeble, Terra Engr., Inc. for Bridgeland
Development Co requesting this item to be continued to July 6, 1999 (Tuesday, due
to July 4th Holi ft) at 8PM P.C. to have time to gather additional information._
Carl Swenson noted that at the request of the developer this will be continued to the
next P. C. Meeting.
Chair Swenson opened the hearing and asked for a motion to continue this item to July 6,
1999 P.C. 8PM Hearing per applicants request letter.
ARLEEN NAGEL MOTIONED TO CONTINUE THE HEARING FOR PETER
KNAEBLE, TERRA ENGR, FOR BRIDGELAND DEVELOPMENT CO. (LU
LUCONICS LAND) PER THEIR LETTER REQUEST. GENE GOENNER
SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY TO
CONTINUE TO JULY 6, 1999 PC 8PM HEARING.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING CONAISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT 8PM - PAGE 6 -
5. Hearing (Cont. from May 17 1999) for applicant/owner Dennis A Backes,
Backes Com an nies, Inc 7026 Brooklyn Boulevard Brooklyn Center MN 55429
The property is the former 120 acre Fabian Sadowski farm located S. of 85TH ST
and NE of Page Ave NE and Packard Ave NE PID#'s 118-500-223200 and 118-500-
272200 in Section 22, Twp 121 R23 and Sec. 27 Twp 121, R23, Otsego, MN. All
the property is zoned A-1, General Agricultural Request is as follows:
A. Rezone from A-1 General Agricultural Rural Service District
to R-4 Residential - Urban Single Family District. ( Note: P.C.
voted to recommend approval of R-4 Rezoning on 5/17/99)
Dan Licht gave NAC's Report dated June 16, 1999. He noted that the Public
Hearing_ was continued from May 17th. The Junel6th Memo deals only with 85th St
access. Access point discussed/reviewed.
Larry Koshak - Reviewed his report - Information provided has been generally
approved and he recommend approval. He indicated that he would prefer the developer
starts on the South end of the development because of the width of 95TH Street.
Jeremy Boots - Loucks s& Assoc, representing Mr. Backes. He noted they are here
to address any concerns.
CHAIR SWENSON OPEN THE PUBLIC HEARING
15160 85TH - Kevin Rudeck - I want to know if the city will be liable for personal
damage due to speed? Property values will be affected by outlet on 85th, especially by my
neighbors driveway. I find it ridiculous that the road comes out on peoples front yards.
The light issue has not been solved.
No one else wished to be heard.
Discussion went back to P.C.
Chair Swenson - Asked for explanation of physical relationship for Padgett Ave
coming into 85th Street. Plat information shows the houses across the Street West side of
street corner lines up to east of their house. East bound traffic would be offset further east
of houses explained Dan Licht.
Carl Swenson asked if any berming, etc, could be done. Dan Licht said across the
street from the project could add landscaping.
Mike Robertson Questioned if the development could start on the South end
instead of North? Mr. Backes said the issue is will city have sewer and water available.
Going South is cheaper. We are leaning towards moving towards the South. I have to buy
the crops if we go to the South.
Back to Public for comment. No one spoke
Chair Swenson closed PUBLIC HEARING
B. Subdivision
Gene Goenner questioned completion of the property? Mr. Backes anticipates
constructing 50 homes a year. He does that and more in Rogers. 3 years or 4 years tops
he anticipates to complete the project.
CITY OF OTSEGO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES OF JUNE
21, 1999 AT 8PM - PAGE 7 -
C. Preliminary Plat of "Crimson Ponds"
GENE GOENNER MOTIONED TO APPROVE THE PRELIMINARY PLAT OF
CRIMSON PONDS, SUBJECT TO A - J CONDITIONS IN NAC'S REPORT AND
THE RECOMMENDATION TO START THE PROJECT ON THE SOUTH END OF
THE PROPERTY. ARLEEN NAGEL SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION
CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY.
b. Any other P.C. Business
a. Update on Council action by CM Vern Heidner
None - As CM Heidner has been out of town.
Mike Robertson noted that the Council has accepted the P.C. recommendation on
the Muffer CUP and approved Prairie Creek Preliminary Plat.
7. Adjourn by 1OPM
CHRISTIAN MBANEFO MOTIONED TO ADJOURN THE P.C. MEETING.
PATRICK MOONEN SECONDED THE MOTION. MOTION CARRIED
UNANIMOUSLY. 9:55P.M. MEETING ADJOURNED.
ARLEEN NAGEL, E, ETARY
MINUTES BY: Elaine Beatty, City Clerk/Recording Secretary
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FILE: PCMN99.WPS